Benyi: 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 Days Clean, and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know will I ever drink again? I do not know this is how Steroid redemption was born. It is my search for answer in the real term process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what is going to work for you. It is our journey together. Hello. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Steroid Redemption. Uh, this week I'm joined by offer and spiritual coach Jessica Morris. Uh, Jessica is also, uh, uh, in recovery. Uh, and, uh, today we are gonna talk about religion, higher power, and a lot of Jesus, you know, uh, how she became a sober through religion and through spirituality. Um, and, uh, she's also gonna share with us her very peculiar story that cannot await for you to hear. And, uh, yeah. Jessica, how are you doing today?

Jessica: 1:50

I'm, I'm fantastic. It's so great to be here with you. This is my favorite thing in the world to talk about. Uh, okay. Especially with people who get it, so, yeah.

Benyi: 2:00

Yeah. Uh, so, uh, you heard, you know, the format. The first question is the state of the mind address. So tell us what's going on with you lately. Something, you know, deeper than, oh, I'm just doing fine.

Jessica: 2:13

Uh, well, you know what, I'm, I'm sort of flying by the seat of my pants lately, but also, uh, with a lot of trust and faith, um, in, when was it? The end of October last year, I left my job of 30 plus years in higher education, fundraising and event planning, that sort of thing. That's what I was doing, uh, for most my whole career really. And, um, it wasn't ever anything I really wanted to do, but it paid the bills and there was health insurance attached to it. So it was always a really good thing. And I met some wonderful people along the way. Uh, however, I knew there was more, I knew there was something more, and so I. Have been writing for a long time. Um, and my second book came out in September. I've published through independent publishers because trying to find some big publishing house to take hold of me was just like beating my head against the wall. Uh, so I, I found, uh, independent publisher who was excited about my, especially my most recent book, and that was released in September. And my husband, uh, is about three way, three years away from. Retirement and we were talking and he and I agreed, and it really was his decision. He said, you know, I want you to have health insurance by the time I retire, but for now I think you need to do the writing full-time to make a go of it. And he was absolutely right. Um, there's so much involved in trying to start a writing ministry and um. So I've been doing that since, um, November 1st of last year. And I just finished my third book, uh, that I just sent off to the publisher. So I'm excited to hear what he thinks. It's the same publisher who, uh, did the second one for me, uh, higher powered, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. But, uh, and, and if he doesn't, you know, if he's not interested in it'cause it's not his cup of tea, then I'll find somebody else, you know, I mean, because that's kind of what God's been doing for me. He just keeps showing me the way and it's, it's just, it's. So I, I'm, I'm excited and I am, I don't ever really get nervous anymore. Um, that, you know, that's something that recovery and my relationship with God has pretty much relieved me of. Uh, and so I'm, I'm kind of like, okay, here I am. I'm 55. I'm not retired yet.'cause I really am working hard at the writing and, and marketing myself, which by the way, I really do not, like I used to, I used to love putting myself out there, you know, when I was Yeah. When I was in my disease. I was all over the place, you know, about how great I was. And now when I talk about it, it's kind of like, should I even be talking about this?

5:17

Yeah. You know, and they're like, you gotta get followers on, on, uh, you know, social media, Instagram, and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh, I don't wanna do that stuff. But

Jessica: 5:26

yeah, it's part of the process. So I'm doing the best I can. I'm. You know, I do drag my heels in some places, but, but yeah, I mean, so yeah, that's the state of the mind right now is just trust and we'll see what God offers up next. I'm kind of excited about it.

Benyi: 5:44

Yeah. That's so interesting that, uh, you say, mentioned that the thing we've, you know, uh, try again for the social media part and also not being nervous anymore that, you know, not being, uh, stressed about things because I how at peace you are, and I have, you know, I have like similar uh, uh, experience. Uh, I lost my, uh, job like last month and I was doing security work for like, um, you know, for, um, for a retail company. And well, I was boxing on the side, I was coaching, boxing, I like to box. Mm-hmm. So when I lost the job, I tried to like, you know, I made like a page just for boxing because I noticed that my personal page was starting getting too much boxing in it. Mm-hmm. And um, and also, uh, I was kind of ing at the idea of having a public page, but now I made one just for boxing. It's just boxing in there so I can like, not aquifer, crowd my main page and people can actually see what I offer. And I'm the same way. Like, I'm like, um, I don't feel about putting myself out there like I used to. Yeah. Like, uh, so what I did so far, I just limit myself two, three posts a week. Mm-hmm. And let's see, because there's a vicious cycle that once you like. Get that external validation, you get addicted to it. I saw myself like, okay, so I created the page a month ago. I already got like 10,000 views. I'm like, oh wow, that's impressive. Like, yeah, like now I'm like looking at the numbers. I'm like, ah. And uh, yeah, it can be a vicious, fic vicious cycle. So I try to be mindful and aware that like this is. This is not what I'm looking for. This is just a byproduct of me, myself, putting myself out there. Right. But it's funny that we shared that. Yeah. Um, um, so yeah, uh, let's start with the beginning. Uh, tell us your story. How did you end up in recovery?

Jessica: 7:54

Well, I probably from the day I was born, I should have been taken right away to, uh, an Al-Anon meeting. You know, I was born into, uh, a family. My father was an alcoholic. Mm-hmm. And both my granddads. Um, now of course my dad was the only one who ever admitted to it, but there were a lot of alcoholics sprinkled, you know, in my family tree. So we'll just talk about him. Um, but. My mom grew up in the family disease of alcoholism, so she, you know, was very good at being the wife of an alcoholic and mm-hmm. I'm the youngest of four, and my dad was also a minister, so it was, um, it was hard because of two things. One, he was really good at his job. He was a very good minister, great speaker, really good with people. Uh, the people in our town, we lived in a very small town, and the people in our town loved him. He went out drinking and smoking with them, you know, I mean, and, and I think that was something that endeared the, dared him to them, you know, because they felt better about themselves, you know, the minister's out with us drinking, so it's okay, you know, and, um, so that was, that was really hard because he came home and was. He was pretty violent. He was either violently rageful or absent emotionally, you know, so there was, there was no real in-between At home, he was also really inappropriate with my mother in front of us. And that might not sound like a big deal, but for a little girl that that's not a good way to see your mom. And my mom allowed him to treat her that way. So, I mean is, I don't wanna just blame him. Um-huh. Because she was a grownup as well, you know? And in hindsight, of course, I can see that. And so early on in my life, I don't remember my exact age, but my dad was probably drinking and he revealed to me that I was a mistake. That my, that my parents only wanted three children. Oh wow. And that's the word he used. Mistake. And I went to my mother and asked her if that was true. And she, all, she said was, he shouldn't have told you that. Like she didn't say, oh no, no, that's not true. She just said, oh, he shouldn't have told you that. And so I grew up and, and I kept that a secret'cause I thought if my siblings know that I'm a mistake, they're gonna beat the crap outta me.'cause we already beat the crap. I mean, we were siblings, right? Yeah. So we already beat each other up and, you know, play I, you know, playfully. But, you know, I was afraid if anyone knew that I was a mistake, then I would be discarded in whatever way. And so my earliest memories are of food. I mean, I, I went right to the food first. I, I don't have any memories from childhood where food isn't part of it. I just was eating, eating, brought me comfort. And early on I also had the comfort of alcohol because my mom made a cough syrup that had, um, either whiskey or some, it was whiskey or gin or something was in it, some kind of alcohol. And I can remember faking having a cough so that I could get some of that, because I remember it going, you know, that first drink you have that you can feel it go all the way down to your toes. You know, that that was the, the memory that I have. And I can never get back to that feeling ever again after that. And so. I spent a lot of time sneaking both food and alcohol as I was growing up. Mm-hmm. Of course, hating my father for being an alcoholic, but doing the same thing without even knowing I was doing the same, you know, I was already going down that road when I was a child. And, um, when I got into high school, you know, I was really worried about grades and stuff until I got into high school and I started recognizing boys and, you know, I wanted to go to the parties and, you know, and so I secretly became the party girl, you know, until I went to college and then all bets were off because nobody was watching. And, um, I just, I don't know how I got through to, to be honest with you, it's a miracle that I got through college in four years. I don't know how I did that. Um, but I, you know, my weight, I. Oh gosh. My first diet was probably like, I don't know, I was probably like 11 or 12 years old and my mom put me on a diet'cause I was gaining weight rapidly. Um, and so my entire life from that first diet until I got into recovery was just this rollercoaster of weight up and down gain and lose the same 50 pounds. I can't even tell you how many times by the end. I was about I, my top, my top weight, I've lost about 120 pounds and kept that off in my recovery. Um, but that 120 pounds came on and off probably twice. This is really bad for your body. You know, this is not good for your health. And I was 29 when I got into recovery. So this was a lot of fierce weight changes in the whole time. Drinking alcohol to excess, using laxatives, you know, um, I never was able to make myself throw up. So I would use exercise as a bulimic type behavior. So I would eat a pizza, a whole pizza, and then I'd go running, or I'd do aerobics for four hours or whatever so that I could get rid of all of that. And for a while, you know, when you're young, that sort of works'cause your metabolism is kind of, you know, you, it's, it's really working for you and. It, it stopped working though, and I also stopped having any control over it. Like I was unable to control my food intake and my alcohol intake anymore. I mean, there were times when I could diet and lose weight, but towards the end, I would say about the last four or five years, I tr I might have tried a couple times to lose weight, but I, I could, it just kept coming on and I was packing it on and packing it on, and meanwhile, my behaviors are. Horrendous. I mean, anybody who's an addict knows, or anybody who's got a family member who's an addict knows you very, you don't wanna be around that person anymore. Like, because you just become like, I became so self-absorbed and not that, I mean, I always was self-absorbed because it was a very depressive child. Um, and there was a lot of trauma in my childhood. And so, you know, I was suicidal all that time, you know, uh, constantly trying to figure out how I could kill myself without anyone knowing I killed myself like that it would look like an accident. Um,'cause I wouldn't want my family to have a, a stain on them, you know, because of the mistake that they made, you know? And I mean, like, that's how my brain thought. And so drinking and eating helped me to escape that noise. And two things happened. About six years. It was about six years before I found recovery. I was, it was the year after I graduated from college and I went back to college to party with my friends every weekend.'cause you know, that's what really professional, smart women do. They go back to Yeah, college to party. And so, um, I was at a party and I, and it was January, I remember that. It was January. It was freezing cold, Pennsylvania, freezing cold. And I went outside to smoke a cigarette. I was all by myself. And I remember looking up at the stars in the sky, and it was just this beautiful, clear night. And it was, I, I, I feel like I, I don't even know a large number beyond gazillion, you know, gazillion stars in the sky. So beautiful. And all I could do was hate God in the moment. Like, I couldn't appreciate that. I couldn't. And I just started yelling at God. Now I have not, I left the church when I was 18 because I, I, I saw what the church, I, I shouldn't say the church allowed my father to get away with, you know? Yeah. And so I, I left the church. I never became an atheist or anything. I always believed, still believed, uh, in God, but I, I pretty much thought God hated me. I thought I was a mistake. I mean, my dad told me that and he was my minister. So of course, God must think that also. And so I was yelling at God. And I always had a really pretty special relationship with Jesus, mainly because he, it sounds so funny when I say this'cause this is not true, but because his a dad abused him too, like that's how my brain used to think, Jesus understand me. That's pretty, because his dad beat the crap outta him too. You know, like uhhuh that. So, but, but it kept me connected, so that's important, you know, it kept me connected. And so I'm standing there yelling at God, thinking, you know, wondering why I'm not getting struck by lightning.'cause I'm thinking, you know, he's hating on me right now. And I had this sense of warmth in this freezing cold night. Warmth and peace just flow over me and I knew that if I turned and looked to my left, Jesus was standing right next to me. Just standing, physically standing there. Not a ghost, not just, it was Jesus. He was standing there. I could turn and hug him and for a second I was happy, I guess. But it immediately turned to fear because I knew everything I'd done. He'd seen it. And at that point I had done a lot of really horrible things. And so I ran back into the party and I look back on that and for a long time, boy did I regret that. I mean, it was one of the biggest regrets I ever had that I, I, I really blocked it from my mind for a very long time that it even happened and it was. About six years later, I was, I moved to a new town, which is actually where I live now. And I was seeing a counselor and, you know,'cause I needed to fix everybody around me. So I went to see a counselor and she, and after about a year, she said to me, you know, you have a lot of tri childhood trauma that you need to work on. She said, but these addictions of yours, especially this food thing, until you get those things under control in, in some way, the trauma work that we do in here is not gonna take hold. Oh, okay.'cause the, the food is in the way. The food isn't until you put that down and, and let it go. It, we're not gonna be able to make any headway on this trauma work. And she sent me to a recovery program for compulsive eaters. And off I went because for whatever reason, God opened my mind. Up until that point. Had anybody said anything like that to me, I was, no. And'cause I know my mom tried to get me into, you know, a recovery.'cause my dad at this point now was going to aa, so, you know, but because my dad was doing it and he was still kind of a jerk, you know, I didn't want any part of that.'cause it obviously didn't work. That's how I, that's how my brain thought. And I also didn't wanna surrender. There's that word surrender, right? So I went to my first meeting and I was just speechless. I mean, I, I could not believe that these people were talking about food. The way I acted with food, because for the most part, I thought I was the only person that ever did these things. I had seen TV movies about anorexics or Bulimics, um, but I couldn't actually do, I, I tried, I prayed to be an anorexic, but I love food. I'm not gonna stop eating. Like, I couldn't that, that lasted maybe two days, you know? And I, I couldn't do that. And then I thought, well, I'll do the bulimia thing where I can make myself throw up. Mm-hmm. And then I can eat as much as I want. And I, I couldn't make myself throw up. I tried every way I knew how and I couldn't do it. And. But here's a room full of people. And they seemed relatively happy. Like they were happy, they were in regular sized bodies. They seemed healthy, and they were laughing about things that they had done with food. And, and it was, uh, it was blowing my mind and I couldn't wait to get out of there. I mean, I, because I knew I was exactly where I needed to be. And one of the things I heard them say that first night is no sugar in your, in your food at all, because sugar is the addictive substance I. Three meals a day, nothing in between. That's what I heard them say. Right. Which is, you know, that's a normal eating plan, right? Yeah. No, yeah. Not for me.'cause I ate all day long. Right. And sugar was at the top of the list. And so I wanted outta there, even though I knew I, I needed to be there. I wanted out. And this woman, God bless her, she like tripped over people getting to me. She was, uh, I didn't know this, but she would soon be my grand sponsor because her,

22:19

mm-hmm.

Jessica: 22:20

Her, one of her sponsees ended up being my sponsor, but she looked me dead in the face and she said, Jessica, please come back. Please come back. And I was like, I have to go back now because this lady is being so nice and she wants me to come back. You know? And it was like. But I still, I still had to get out, you know, and I, and I left and that whole week, I, um, you know, I, I go to more than one meeting a week now, but I thought it was like, you know, any weight loss program I'd ever been to before. You just go once a week. And, but that whole week I did that, no sugar and, and I just ate three meals a day. Of course, my plates were heaping full for those three meals, but it was three meals a day. I didn't eat anything in between. And I thought, well, this, you know, that next week I was getting ready to go to the meeting. I was sitting on the couch in my apartment and I thought, you know, this was pretty easy. I don't really need to go back. I know what I need to do, and I don't hear God like audibly like a voice in my ear. I get sort of this, um, it, it's almost like wind flows through me or something and I have a thought and I know it's from God. And the first one that I ever knew happened was that night. And it was Jessica, if you don't go to that meeting, you are going to die. And it was that clear and that, and I shot up outta that ca. I, I was off to the meeting. I was, because I didn't wanna die, you know? I mean, it was the first time in my life I really felt like, I don't wanna die. You know, I don't wanna be gone from here. There's still things I need to do. And I, I believe that was obviously, that's God, that's the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, but I just didn't know it yet. You know, I believe that. You know, Jesus came to me at that party, you know, to let me know he was there. He knew I was gonna run away'cause Jesus knows everything, you know. But he wanted me to know, look, I'm right here, you know? And then when he saw that I couldn't look right at him, he offered me these people in recovery who looked dead in my eyes and said, please come back. And I could look right at them, and I could, because they were me. You know, whether that woman was a Christ follower or not, doesn't matter. It's that she, she gave a crap about who I was because she could see herself in me and. So that's, that's really, I, I, I hope that, what did you say? How did I get to recovery?

Benyi: 25:05

Yeah, yeah.

Jessica: 25:07

And then, and I will just say one other thing real quick. Mm-hmm. Um, it took me about another year after that to admit I was an alcoholic. Now I wasn't drinking because there's no drinking in the program for the food, but I was what they call stark raving sober. Have you ever heard that? You know, somebody who's sober, but still insane? Like, just crazy. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Like,

Benyi: 25:31

uh,

Jessica: 25:31

yeah. I, I mean, and I, my, my sponsor in that food program sent me to an addictions counselor because she knew, because she was in the, the program for alcoholics. So she knew what she saw in me.'cause it was her. And she's like, here, go see this guy. You know? And so, so after I was with him for a little while, I. I was like, fine, I'll go to an AA meeting if that's what you want me to do, you know? And it pissed me off'cause I didn't wanna have what my dad had, you know? Um, but it was absolutely where I needed to be. And, and then I eventually added for family and friends and I go to that. Also, I'm a three time winner. So, you know, I mean, it, it, so that's my journey into recovery. A lot has happened since then, of course, but that's how I got there.

Benyi: 26:21

Yeah. Uh, thank you very much for sharing the, the, uh, your story. I haven't heard that term that you used to. Uh, the term that I heard was, uh, dried drunk, but what did you say again? Can you say that again? I said

Jessica: 26:33

stark raving, sober stark. Stark raving, sober, you know, kind of like your stark

Benyi: 26:39

raving sober. You're

Jessica: 26:40

like, um, uh, I'm trying to, uh, kind of, um, like you have your hair on, you know, people who have their hair on fire for Jesus, but all they do is wave the Bible at you. Yeah. You know, like that. So I was waving the big book at people, but I was,

Benyi: 26:57

yeah, big. Yeah, big book. Temporary.

Jessica: 26:58

Yeah. There you go. There you go.

Benyi: 27:01

Yeah. But I wasn't actually following

Jessica: 27:03

the directions. Yeah, yeah,

Benyi: 27:05

yeah, yeah. Those, yeah, those guys, those people are a little bit tricky. Yeah. Yeah. But you can sense. Um, so yeah. Um, when did you, um. We found, found religion again, because you just talk about how you, uh, ended up in recovery and even the experience with Jesus. You said that it was in hindsight that like, you know, like you remember, so that memory was blocked. So what was, uh, at what point during your, your journey did you, uh, did you reconcile with God?

Jessica: 27:42

Uh, it, it happened over time. You know, it was a gradual thing early on in recovery. You know, thank God that the recovery programs, you know, are real clear that it's higher power. It doesn't have to be any one thing. Um, you know, any one particular religion. In fact, the word religion is pretty much drummed out anytime anybody says it, which is a good thing because I think so many people do come in with. A lot of bad ideas about what religion is. And, you know, religion is what human beings have done to the message of spirituality. Really. Oh, you know, like I look at, um, the message of Jesus Christ and, and then I look at the, the how many denominations of Christ followers are there, and it makes me shake my head and go, seriously, do you all think you're doing it the right way? You know, I mean, he gave us, you know, one thing he said, love each other as I've loved you. Why do you need to have doctrines about that? You know, like, that's kind of where I go in my head. So that's a whole nother podcast. But anyway, um, uh, so what happened for me in early recovery is I used the, uh, acronym God good orderly direction. So my first higher power was good orderly direction because I, at that time, I really still believed that God hated me, you know, like the God of my childhood. Mm-hmm. Um, and so my sponsor suggested, how about anytime somebody says the word God in a meeting, you just replace it in your mind with good, orderly direction. So it's something that's higher than you, it's outside of you. It's not you making a decision, it's you going to a meeting. Asking for help or calling somebody or reading your literature or, you know, whatever it ha or giving service, you know, so it's good orderly directions For a long time that worked, but then it didn't, you know, and I, and I, I started seeking, um, seeking answers. You know, like I'd go on Amazon and I'd put in sp books on spirituality or books about Jesus or whatever.'cause I've always loved Jesus so much. And, um, I just kept re I just was reading everything I could get my hands on, you know. Um, one of my favorite books during that time, it's called Messy Spirituality, um, and the, the author's name is, oh gosh, Michael, oh, I can't remember. It's a great book though, because it's all about, you know, sinners. You know, sinners who love Jesus, and that's the whole point, isn't it? Right? Mm-hmm. Mean that's who he came to, to save. And, but for a long time I thought I had to be perfect, you know, and so over time, um, where I was working well, I did a lot of that trauma work and that helped, um, that counselor that my sponsor sent me to. Uh, he was just a beautiful man of faith, and, and he was also in recovery, so he understood, and he really helped me to truly excavate the crap of my childhood from within my soul, and just let it go, you know, stop the resentments and the expectations and all that stuff that kept me chained to it, you know? Mm-hmm. Dad could come to me and apologize for all the things he did to me, or all the things he said to me, but he's never gonna be able to give me back my innocence, right? Mm-hmm. So why am I holding him up on charges? You know, this is, he's a sick man. He was a sick man while he was still alive. And so for me to continue not forgiving him was only hurting me. And that's, you know, as I was going through that trauma work, that's the thing that really sunk into me and. Then I met the chap, the, a new chaplain was hired where I worked, and I had to, I was doing an event and I invited him to give the, the, um, prayer, uh, uh, before the meal at the, the event. And I, he didn't know anyone else. So I had him sit by me, you know, during the event. And we got to talking, and I was of course suspicious of him because he, you know, he had the collar on. He was a minister. And I, I was like always suspicious of ministers, you know, but I really liked him, you know, and he, he, he was, uh, he seemed really down to earth. Um, and we kept running into each other on campus or whatever. And then one day I heard me saying to him, do you ever talk to staff members about God or just to students? And he said, sure. I took, that's my job is to be here for everybody who needs to talk about God. That's what I'm here for. And I started to go talk to him. He was the first man of the cloth they call it, um, that I trusted in my whole life. And he encouraged me to follow, you know, my instinct in regards to, I started saying things like, I wanna go to seminary to learn. Like, I didn't even wanna be, because I'm still not involved in organized religion at this point. I'm like, I don't wanna be a minister. I just wanna learn about these things for myself. Like, not have my dad tell me or have some minister tell me. Just I wanna go and learn it Now, try telling that to your husband that there's no job on the other end of this, but it's gonna cost us a lot of money for me to do that. You know, but you, you can only say no to God for so long. You know, and he just kept poking at me and poking at me and poking at me. Meanwhile, I wrote my first book, which was a daily meditation book, um, for people in recovery or not, but mostly for recovery. People just looking for God, searching for God. And, uh, that led me to finally taking the plunge, my husband saying, okay. You know? Um, and I started seminary part-time in 2014, and it took me six years to get through it. And while I was there Wow. The transformation, uh, it's almost, I, it's hard to even describe, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, I just fell in love with Jesus, like. Uh, nobody's business. And I tripped over while I was there. I took a one credit class called Individual Spiritual Direction because I needed, uh, a one credit class that semester and somebody said, here, take this. You'll like it. There's no pa there's no exam. You just have to write a paper. You know? And, um, and I ended up staying an extra year to get a certificate in spiritual direction because I just absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it.

34:59

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 34:59

And so that, that's when, when I was in seminary or seminary is when I really started saying, my higher power is the Trinity God, Jesus Holy Spirit. You know, I started putting a name on it and trusting it and, and just, um, you know, my morning quiet times became longer and longer, and I'm getting up earlier and earlier in the morning because I wanna spend more time there. You know, it just became so fulfilling. Uh, and, and I had forgiven, I don't know if forgiven is the right word, accepted.

35:43

Mm.

Jessica: 35:43

Accepted my path, the path that God had put me on in this world, you know? And why was I born into this family? I have no idea. I don't care anymore. You know? I do. And, and would I change any of that? No.

36:00

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 36:01

I would not change one thing. I would not change my father telling me I was a mistake because it, it helped me to become me today, who I really like, you know? And so, how else would I have gotten here without that, you know, because it didn't take me down roads that, um, I needed to heal from. And in my healing, I have come across some of the most amazing people just. Just people that God has put in my path that have just changed everything about what I think about humanity, about God, everything. It's just so beautiful.

Benyi: 36:48

Wow. That's, I can, I can like just, you know, stay here and hear you talk about it. It, it, it's, it, it, it's amazing. It sounds to me that, like, from what I'm hearing right now, that your definition, you just, maybe not, um, consciously, but implicitly, implicitly give what your definition of surrendering for you was apparently, like for you. Surrendering is acceptance. You said acceptance, accepting what happened to you.

37:18

Mm-hmm.

Benyi: 37:19

Like. Also not caring about finding the answers for things that, like some questions that like apparently do not matter, right? Like, because like, I don't even care anymore why? I just, this is my path. Like I've found, like to go back to the definition of higher power, like I found it hard to define a higher power because the moment I try to define it, I put limitation on what my higher power is. But so far in my journey, I, the only people I've seen met who understand, who I've, who are attuned in communion with the higher power are people who've been in recovery, right? Mm-hmm. And. The idea of being at peace that like, there's nothing to worry about. I mean, there's like the small worries of the world, but even those, like, they cannot shake us at our core. Right. And when we mention God and higher power, how, how sometime other people, just the perception of us is like, we are all silly. Like, you know, we just dropping the, the, the God word. Like we are like zealots. Yeah. Some of other people might think that we're all zealots. Yes. But how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with those who probably know you before and be like, oh, now she's the, she's the Jesus woman. So,

Jessica: 38:56

um, wow. You know, I think for me, I. I'm, I'm at an age too in my, I'm, I'm just turned 55 this year. Mm-hmm. And so, and I have 20, over 25 years in recovery. So I'm, you know, early on recovery was difficult in the sense that I really did, you know, they say you have to change people, places and things, you know? Yeah. I, I almost had to walk away from pretty much every friend that I had at that point, because the ones that were left, you know, because I had alienated a lot of people, but I couldn't, you know, partying was just no longer a part of my routine anymore. And so, mm-hmm. The, the people I was hanging with didn't wanna not party, you know? And so, um, that was difficult. It, since then, though, I would have to say that as new beliefs. Have entered or old beliefs with a much better face on them. You know, that sort of thing, um, have entered in and outta my life. It's almost like I, I guess God, I, it feels like God's paving the way with my sobriety, you know, with my abstinence from compulsive eating. You know, the people that I need when I need them are there. And, and by that I mean, you know, my first sponsor in the program is not my sponsor today. You know, like she was exactly what I needed when I first walked in the doors, right? We parted ways amicably at one point, and I got a new sponsor and everything. The woman that I am working with now is a beautiful woman of Christ and. Had she been there first, I probably would've went running in the other direction. Yeah.

41:05

You know, and so

Jessica: 41:07

like, I think God just puts the people I need in front of me. And in addition to that being, I don't know if it's the age I am or just where I am with my journey with Christ, I really don't care if someone wants to call me a Jesus freak or, you know. Um, my sister, my sister said to me, um, last summer, she was like, well, you always talk about Jesus. You know, like, I mean, because I said something about it and, and I was like, well, yeah, that's who I am. You know, like, that's today he is my number one relationship, you know? And so mm-hmm. Of course I'm gonna talk about him a lot and I'm gonna want you to know him because I. What I can tell you about what he's done for me is, is that I have peace in my heart, in my mind, in my soul, that some of that came from putting, putting the food down and putting the alcohol down. But the peace that I have now that comes from my relationship with Jesus is it's indescribable. I, yeah, there's no way to describe it.

Benyi: 42:22

No, I think, I think I, I, I got, I got you. Uh, on that, like the, when you put like the substances out, uh, there's the piece of like, your body just feeling better. Your mind starts feeling better, but once you get like a higher power in communion with your higher power, it's your whole like spirit. Now that, you know, I'm a believer that a healthy person or, uh. As like, it's like a, a three legged stool, like a tripod, you know, uh, body, mind, and spirit, you know? Yeah. Body and body and mind usually works together. Like, you know, like once you take off of your body, your mind feels better. But the spirit is something that we need to work on to be inconvenient, to keep everything balanced. Uh, me and my, me and my recovery journey. Working out is very important. Like, you know, like, yes. Once I work out, my mind is set right and when my mind is set right. Also my body feels better, vice versa. And like, you know, need to come in, like you, I like to take my mornings early, um, and quiet. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, at least have 30 minutes where I don't check my phone, I just look at the ceiling. I just think like, just thinking or sitting in chair and thinking, yeah. I love that. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Um, I want to circle back to those two men that were like very important. The one was the counselor that helped you dig through the trauma. Mm-hmm. And the other one was the chaplain, I believe. Yeah. The first, yeah. So what's, how important it is to have to find the right support group when you. You know, the people you trust, the right support group when you, you come up with, um, when you try to do the, when you're early in your recovery, right? Because Yeah.

Jessica: 44:08

Yeah. It can be dangerous. Uh, you know, depend. It can be depend on, talk about that.

Benyi: 44:12

Yeah, yeah. Off camera, where you can end up in the wrong group. Like we were talking about sometime in aa, you know, there are people who are still sick and suffering, and the fact that we are in that vulnerable position, we are like very exposed to people who have, you know, um, bad intention. Mm-hmm. But the people in who have bad intention in those circles are, have the disguise that they want to help, which is like very, uh, how you say pernicious? Uh, yeah. Yeah. So, so how, how do you deal with that? How, what's your, what, what's your take on it?

Jessica: 44:48

It's, it's very similar to what you see happen in religion, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, um, you know, the whole thing about the priests, uh, that were abusing boys in, in the Catholic church. Yeah. Or, you know, there's people in any, I believe in that there is an evil force in this world.

45:07

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 45:08

And anytime that there's a movement to help, it's gonna try to infiltrate that in one way or another, because God forbid people get healthy. Right. Um, you know, and I was blessed in my early days of recovery to have, um, people around me, my sponsor, my grand sponsor, reminding me constantly watch people how they walk. Everybody can talk a good game, you know? Yeah. But watch the people who show up on time for meetings. Watch the people who do service watch, you know, like they told me all the things that I was looking for and they all said to me, they pretty much, you know, for the most part, you're only supposed to make suggestions to newcomers these women, not with me, man. They were like, you are not dating anyone for the first year at least. And after that, then you have to run them by us. You know what I mean? Yeah. They, they were, they were like, hawks over me, you know? And thank god that they were,'cause I was a nightmare. I was an absolutely nightmare. Um, and so, so I had these people around me and, and that first sponsor was the one who sent me to the counselor and he. He helped so many people in my area where I lived, uh, or where I live. Uh, he actually passed away in 2020. Um, but I can look around a meeting today and I can see probably in a, in a room full of say 30 people, I can say at least five that I know went through his, through his counseling. And they're different people, you know, they're different people. He just, he had a gift, he was like a channel, um, for healing. And the beautiful thing about him, one thing that he taught me, the major thing he taught me was that he wasn't anything special, you know? Wow. He was very humble without saying he was humble. Mm-hmm. You know, he, um, he consistently pointed to a higher power as the one in charge of the sessions that we were having. Um. And after I graduated out from, you know, the group I did probably about, I think it was about four or five years of, of really intense work with him. Um, and then, you know, he, he said, I, I'm ready to send you on your way. And he said, but I'm here if you need to come back for a tuneup or, you know, or whatever, anytime. And I did a couple times. Um, but then I would see him places, you know,'cause we're both in the same recovery community. And he was very, uh, good at setting boundaries with people. He, you know, just by the way he behaved, he taught me how to age in recovery in a, in an attractive way, you know, and, and, and, and that's just to me, that's. That's priceless. You know? I mean, to, to be able to look at someone and see, you know what, that's how I wanna be. I wanna be like that person.'cause there are enough people that are showing me how I don't wanna be. Right. Yeah. There's plenty of those going around. But when I, when I see someone like that, who, first of all I respect because of the time and attention and energy he gave to helping me. You know? So I'm gonna pay more attention. Well, he was what he was, what he said he was, you know, and so for me, that's huge because I lived with a man who helped a lot of people. My dad's funeral was like two days long because there were so many people who wanted to come pay their respects. I mean, he helped a lot of people. He was not that person though, you know? Mm-hmm. There again, God uses everybody. Yeah. You know, God knows how to, I mean, let's, let's talk about King David. If you wanna talk about somebody who was a little off the beaten track, and God certainly abused him, you know, but look at some of the things he did. You know, it doesn't make it okay. It just, you know, God knows what he needs to do with people. But this man who would, my counselor, he, he was trustworthy. He showed that in a million different ways. And that's how I wanna be. And then the, the chaplain, um, was the, the same way. I mean, he, he was just, he wasn't an addict himself, but he was very good at working with addicts, um, which I think is one of the reasons that he became the chaplain at a college, because there are a lot of them running around there. And, and he was, he was very good at working with them. And one of the things that I loved about him is that he never once judged me about not being a member of a church. Never once he said, I remember him saying to me, you know, Jessica, I like to refer to myself as a Galilean Christian. And, and I was like, what do you mean? This was before I even went to seminary. I'm like, what are you talking about? And he's like, well, the first disciples were from Galilee. Yeah. And they knew what Jesus meant when he said, break bread together. Do this in remembrance of me. They didn't start. They didn't start building churches'cause they couldn't Yeah. They were being condemned and persecuted. They had to hide in houses and, you know, um, but they kept doing it and they kept loving each other the way he loved them. And that's what I wanna do. I don't care about all these creeds and doctrines and traditions.

Benyi: 50:56

Yeah.

Jessica: 50:57

Yeah.

Benyi: 50:58

That's, that's, that's funny. But like, uh, that's rare to see like, uh, uh, a counselor or therapist who are like, okay, now, uh, lower bird, it's time to, to to, to fly on your own. Yeah. Like I feel like in our society and I would like your taken on it. In our society now, we so heavily therapist, the, the therapist. The therapist. Therapist. Therapist, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We, we, we do so much therapy that sometime I'm like, I'm under me personally, I'm under the oppression that like you have the people who are in therapy just too. To use it as an excuse, like for like self pity or like, you know, be like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm a victim, or like to victimize themself. And you have those who are in therapy who like really want to do the work and I don't know. Now we gonna talk a little bit, we can take that as a segue to talk about the work you do with other people, but, uh, what, what have you witnessed you personally when, you know, you talk to people who, who are in therapy or trying to work, um, on themself?

Jessica: 52:10

It, you know, it's, it's kind of the same as people who come into recovery, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, like you just said, there are some people who, who, uh, wanna stay in self-pity. It's a very comfortable place. You know, I, I stayed there for a long time, you know, so I, I can't be judgmental about it. It's just a reality of, um, the disease that we carry, you know? Um, and then there are people who really wanna get well. And, you know, those are the people who, you know, they come in and, and, uh, whether it's to, um, a therapy co uh, a counseling session or into rooms of recovery or whatever, and they're like, tell me what to do, you know, I'll do it. And that's sort of where I was, you know, I, I was just like, I don't care what you tell me to do. I'm gonna do it. Even though I was, I was pissed off. I didn't wanna have to do it, you know? But at the same time, I also wanted to feel better. I was tired of feeling like crap all the time. And so the thing I love about, uh, about recovery for the most part, and about doing spiritual direction now, um mm-hmm on my own, is that people who usually show up there. They really want it, you know, because not a lot of people even know what spiritual direction is. And so by the time they find out about it, it's'cause they're seeking it. You know? They're, they're, they're looking for it. It's not like the judge said, unless you go to this, you're gonna go to jail. You know, there's none of that. Yeah. You know, and so I feel like when I'm working with someone in spiritual direction, I have sort of an open, an open book, an open heart, an open mind, an open soul, and together we can, we can improve their relationship with their higher power, you know? Um, and I do work with a lot of people who are in recovery and so I try, it's harder and harder the closer I get to Jesus. Um, but I try very hard to, to stick with the word higher power, simply because I don't wanna. Scare anyone away or, or, you know, make anyone think, well, I can't go talk to her.'cause all she ever talks about is Jesus, you know

54:24

Jesus.

Jessica: 54:25

Yeah. But I, I, I want them to know that I. You know, I get it. I was there at one point, and if you wanna sit here and talk about the creator of the universe, that's okay with me.'cause Yeah, it's the same thing in my head, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Benyi: 54:44

No, I get it. I get it. Um, yeah, like the power also of identification when you can identify with a person, you feel like more relatable, you feel like, uh, um, more at ease, I will say. Um, yeah, like, uh, I, I understand. Um, is there still things that you are struggling with even after 25 years of sobriety?

Jessica: 55:09

Um. Uh, I, I believe there will be, uh, you know, one of the, one of my friends in recovery, always after she shares in a meeting, she'll, you know, say some crazy thing that she did or whatever, and she'll go, so there's no danger in me getting, well, I'll be back. You know? And that's, that's kind of how I feel, you know, there's, yeah. You know, life is significantly better. I have peace today. Um mm-hmm. But of course there's still things that, you know, really, uh, at times I forget about like, turning my phone off. I'm sorry. I don't know if you could hear that my phone was ringing. No, I could not. Sorry. Um, but you know, like those defects of character that sort of rear their ugly heads every once in a while, you know? Yeah. Remember me, I'm judgment and I'm gonna sit on your shoulder during this meeting and tell you how everybody here is stupid. You know, I, I mean that, you know,

Benyi: 56:08

I'm guilty of it. Yeah. I'm guilty of it. And, you know,

Jessica: 56:11

and I want, and I, and there's a part of me that wants to go, oh gosh, I shouldn't think like that anymore. I should be better than that. And I don't say that anymore either because, you know, I'm human, I'm human, and I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think stupid things. I'm gonna say stupid things. And if I beat myself up over that, then I'm part of the problem. You know, I just have to accept that sometimes I'm gonna mess up. I mean the, the, uh, what does it say in the 10th step When we were wrong, we promptly admitted it. Not if we were wrong. Yeah. When you were wrong. You know, wrong. Yeah. And so they're basically setting us up to recognize you're gonna mess up, you know? Yeah. Um, I would say probably, you know, my biggest thing is, uh, fighting the ego. Fighting the ego in the sense that I do. As much as my dad drove me nuts growing up, um, because he was so self-centered and just so full of himself, I can be that at the drop of a hat. And, and I have, that's why my morning time with God is so important to me, you know? Yeah. Because I need to make that surrender every day, like, mm-hmm. Look, man, you are. You are in charge of this today? Not me. When I start to think I'm in charge, could you just bonk me over the head please? Because I sometimes I need to be bonked in the head. Yeah. You know? Um, but it actually, I think it, it, it makes me more, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Relatable for my sponsees still, you know? Mm-hmm. Because, I mean, would you wanna go, you know, work with somebody who thought they were perfect?

Benyi: 58:05

Yeah. You of course. Like, I

Jessica: 58:07

mean, it doesn't, you know, so I, I, you know, they see me mess up. They say me, you know, do stupid stuff.

Benyi: 58:14

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 58:14

Just who I am.

Benyi: 58:16

I think also the, another benefit of, of thinking that way is like, it allows you not to be complacent and always be on top of your game, you know, like that. Because 25 years, I'm sure after five or after 10, you're like, okay, I got this kinda right. Yeah. That feeling, that feeling myself, like creep said also, right? Like, like, well, you know,

Jessica: 58:39

I'll say there were some times, there were some, you know, times in around those years, five, 10 years where I did start to, you know, kind of get a little full myself and there were people who were put in my path who told me the truth of what they were seeing. Yeah. And I, I am so, I mean, I could have of course walked away from them, you know, but I'm just so grateful to God that number one, they were put there and they had the courage to say to me what they saw and that I listened. And I didn't, you know, close down to the truth because Yeah. That's the part I think of people that, you know, the truth about ourselves is probably the most painful thing we're ever gonna discover.

Benyi: 59:28

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 59:29

You know?

Benyi: 59:30

No, I, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Jessica: 59:32

No, I was just gonna say, and, and, and I think that's what scares people away and they don't even know it.

Benyi: 59:38

Yeah.

Jessica: 59:38

Yeah.

Benyi: 59:39

Like, uh, uh, I'm so grateful that, uh, I'm blessed with wanting to know the truth of by myself because, you know, I'm, I. A lot of people want to feel good, and in order to feel good, they're willing to accept a lie. Yeah. But the problem with a lie is like that. Deep down, we know it's a lie. So we need to reinforce that lie every single time. And it's exhausting. I've been there, you know? Yeah. Lying about yourself. Yes. It's exhausting. The peace only comes with the truth. Even if the truth is painful, it's ugly. Once you accept it, you know, okay, this is who I am. All right. How can I get better from there? Like instead of lying to ourself, no, I'm not like this. You know, like

Jessica: 1:00:20

Right, right.

Benyi: 1:00:21

Yeah.

Jessica: 1:00:21

And all those things. All those things that led me to hear today, you know, all those horrible things that I talked about. You know, I don't wanna rehash them all my life. I also don't ever wanna forget them. Mm-hmm. And I also will be the first one to sit down with a newcomer and say, yeah, you know. I was in students Against Drunk Driving when I was in high school. I was the vice president because I was gonna show my dad how horrible it was to drive drunk with people in your car and how you could kill people. And I was also then the person who about 10 years later, came out of a blackout in the middle of a highway driving her car.

Benyi: 1:01:07

Wow.

Jessica: 1:01:08

Yeah. You know, and that's not, I'm not proud of that. Mm-hmm. But I'm gonna tell somebody that because there, the reality of being an addict is, for me anyway, there is nothing inside of me that wants to behave that way. And yet there I am behaving that way. I cannot stop myself. I can't stop myself from doing it. I need, I always say to people, especially newcomers, I couldn't stop myself from starting. And once I started, I couldn't stop.

Benyi: 1:01:44

Stop, you know? And

Jessica: 1:01:45

so that's a conundrum, you know, that's a rock and a hard place. And I'm in between going, how the heck do I get out of this? You know? Mm-hmm. And there's only one answer to that. It's a spiritual solution. And I'm here to tell you that if you're not willing to pick up that tool of spirituality, it's not ever gonna take, you can, like you said, the three, the three legs of the stool. You can do the physical and the mental until you're blue in the face. But until you add that spiritual leg

1:02:16

mm-hmm. It's

Jessica: 1:02:17

not ever really gonna take hold and, and give you peace.

Benyi: 1:02:21

Yeah. Alright. What, uh, I think this is a beautiful, uh, uh, way, uh, place where we can stop. So, last question, um, Jessica, where we can find you, what you have going on lately. Uh, you share us your book, uh, where to Find It and

Jessica: 1:02:39

Yes. You know what Everything about Me, you can find on my website. It's, it's my name with my middle initial jessica l morris.com and my books are there. Uh, hopefully I'll have a third one up there pretty soon. I'm, I'm waiting to hear back on that one information about Spiritual Direction. Is there some um, some of my poetry is there. I do a blog. If you wanna get the blog, you can get that. Um, there's just all kinds of stuff about me there. That's the best place to go.

Benyi: 1:03:07

Yeah. Alright. All right. Thank you very much for being a guest on Stairway to Redemption and uh, I wish you the best. And guys, I will see you next week or in two weeks. We'll see.

1:03:17

God bless.