Benyi 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 days clean and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know. Will I ever drink again? Okay. Bye. I do not know. This is how Stairway to Redemption was born. It is my search for answer in a real time process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what's going to work for you. It is our journey together. All right. Uh, welcome back, uh, to another episode of Starway to Redemption guys. Uh, this week, uh, last week's guest, this is the first time this is happening in a Starway to Redemption that we have a part two for the same topic, because this topic is so vast and also, you know, um, had, I think we, we haven't exhausted the topic yet, so. I'm welcoming, uh, back, uh, Barb, Barb, welcome back. How are you doing?

Barb 1:41

Thank you so much, Benny. I am really honored to be the first guest that you've had back a second time. And yeah, I remember, uh, thinking like we're never going to get through all this stuff and I'm so glad you invited me back so we can continue the conversation. I felt like, um, you and I make great conversation together. It was like, I think of it as you're a great conversationalist. I'm not trying to say that I'm not, but. You know, I'm on a lot of podcasts and I don't necessarily want to go back to all of them. So I'm delighted to be invited back,

Benyi 2:12

you know, what they say, it takes two to tango. So I guess we, we dance well together. So like, uh, um, but yeah, so, um, This episode two, we're going to start with the state of the mind address. Uh, so what's going on, uh, since I saw you two weeks ago?

Barb 2:31

Yeah. So, um, I don't, I don't know about what's going on in the last two weeks, but this afternoon I literally had to like pause and do a reset and do some journaling because some stuff has come up for me recently. Um, for those who haven't listened to the first episode, I'm in 12 step recovery, which really transformed my life. And. I was listening to a podcast episode in the car and it was not about recovery, but the guy is in recovery and he was talking about the power of, um, looking at like resentments and doing forgiveness. And I realized that in regard to my business, I have some resentments. Against some of the vendors that I've worked with over time that I've never allowed myself to acknowledge that and so I decided to sit down and go through some of the work and I realized that I actually have some resentments against myself too. Which I didn't realize and what came up, um, in, in there about me is some of the things that I patterns that I've had for a long time. So one is unrealistic expectations. Um, another is my core wound of codependence that I can see that, you know, there are certain people that I've worked with. And that, yes, they are the experts in their field, but I'm the expert in my business and I have just deferred to them like they know better than I do. Um, in a way that is reminiscent of my codependent pattern and coming to see that is kind of painful, but it's also really good. And then the other thing that just came up the other day. With the woman who, she's my operations manager, but she's really more like a coach and she helped me to see that I still, um, have this deep seated belief that I have to overgive to people. And what's really, um, kind of ironic, Benny is my signature speech. My signature presentation is stop over giving repair your life from the inside out. And I think it's like, you know, the reason I became a boundaries coach, like there's a million reasons. Um, I'm really good at it. They've transformed my life. Um, I know that I can help people, but also I'm never going to let go of my boundaries because I'm a boundaries coach. And I think like, that's part of it. I don't think that was conscious going in. And I don't think it's a coincidence that my signature talk is stop overgiving because it's a reminder to me. That I need to stop over giving. So, you know, I could go on, but essentially I'm saying like, I am a personal growth person, I coach people and I do this stuff all the time. And I have coaches too, by the way. Um, that like, to me, this stuff never stops. I am, I am on a journey, like I'm on a stairway to redemption, so to speak, and the stairway doesn't end. It gets easier. Um, and, but sometimes, you know, one of my friends uses this metaphor, like in the beginning of recovery, she said, I got rid of the big boulders. And then I got rid of the rocks and then I got rid of the gravel and now I'm dealing with the sand and the thing about the sand is it falls into the cracks. It falls in between the steps of the stairway. Yeah, we need a very fine tool like tweezers to get that. It's not a bulldozer that you're pushing the boulder. And so it's, it's not as devastating to do the work. Like those boulders are things that are probably going to kill you if you don't take care of them. Yeah. But the small things can have such an incredible impact on them when you see them and I feel like that's sort of where I am now this pattern of codependence of mine is so fucking insidious that it comes out in these ways in my business that I need other people to point out to me that are happening. So I think I'll stop there because clearly I could go on.

Benyi 6:41

No, actually, like, I would like to, to, for you to elaborate more on this, because I have some, I remember if correct me if I'm correct, uh, in our first talk, when, um, you were talking and giving your state of the union address, you are mentioning that like you ruminate sometime on things. Right. Correctly. And I was wondering, is it like things that you are ruminating on because you didn't find a closure you wanted is that maybe one of the issues with those vendors or something?

Barb 7:20

Well, like, do you want,

Benyi 7:21

did you want to, sorry, yeah, go ahead.

Barb 7:25

So for me, like the, the most common thing I ruminate on is finances and it's, I, I, I have this core belief. I don't want to have this belief, but I have this core belief that there will not be enough, not there isn't enough now. That's not the belief it's there won't be enough. And the thing is it's the future. How can you possibly know? But I could decide there's going to be enough and moat. And I find myself very frequently making the decision there is going to be enough and then acting in accordance with that. But then it's like, there's this natural, it feels natural, this sort of like inborn part of me. Um, of course it's not inborn, but that's what it feels like. It feels so deeply entrenched and ingrained that it's like the, there's this well worn groove. And I can pave over that groove and I can dig a new groove, but it's hard to do because first I have to jump out of the group. Like let's I'm thinking about like a piece of wood with a carved track in it and a marble going through it. Like, to jump that marble out of the carved track onto a new track that hasn't even been carved yet, like, think about how difficult that is. So I've got to use my marble to carve my new track without falling back into the old track, and I also need to pave over the old track. There's a lot involved in that, and I work on it all the time. So that, for me, is ruminating. This, this codependence thing, Um, it, it feels like it's probably also a core, like it's a core belief, not just a limiting belief. And I think the, um, maybe there's a connection I'd have to think about it, probably journal about it. If there's a connection between there won't be enough and. I have to overgive, um, there probably is, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, but I don't, did I answer your question? Yeah.

Benyi 9:26

I mean, yeah, like I wanted to know more of it. Uh, yeah, it did. I think he, I think he did personally, but yeah, you know, uh, what's, uh, what's kind of interesting is also, I had to establish my boundaries this morning. Uh, so I started last week, uh, coaching boxing classes. And this morning, uh, my class, my class start at 8, 8 a. m. to 9, I usually start at 8 or 5, you know, not to be like a tyrant, you know, when it comes to time and there's somebody that show up like 20 minutes late, you know, their first class and I'll give the combination on the bag. We have heavy bags for everybody at the heavy bags. They start recording, like they put like their phone. And so I don't know if you're familiar with the gym culture, but everybody wants to record themselves for social media, that kind of stuff.

Barb 10:23

Okay. I didn't know that.

Benyi 10:25

Yeah.

Barb 10:26

So

Benyi 10:26

yeah, record yourself. But like, um, I've, I've few things against recording, but one of the thing is like. Uh, I thought there was nothing to record for her because she had that person. She had no technique. She was new. She was like, you know, record yourself for improvement, but you need to have something to improve on. And I've thought like that had nothing to improve on. That was their first class. That was the first boxing class. So I see the phone number you're recording. She's like, yeah, I want to do my stance and stuff. I don't say anything I check on the other people I come back. She's on the phone like she had a headset on She was on the phone talking to somebody so I was like, I muster myself. I stopped quiet I stopped caring about her for like maybe 10 15 minutes. I was just caring about the other people She was trying to get my attention and I was like, no, this is not happening And after the class, at the end, I had to have a conversation with this person. I'm like, this is something I take seriously. This, you did this, this, this, and that, that like those three things coming late, the phone and, uh, being on the call while I'm in class, that's, you know, But also I noticed two things. Uh, I was kind of proud of myself for not snapping. It wasn't that hard. I think I'm better at it. Also, I explained it in a way where I didn't humiliate her. I didn't tell her that like, you know, there's nothing to record. You should not like you suck. No, I didn't say that. Oh yeah. So. But I was, I was kind of annoyed by the automatic defensiveness of that person. Oh, no, no, no, it's not like, you know, there was traffic here. There was, so when I say you were late, there was traffic. When I say you are recording, there was like, I want to know my form and stuff. And when I was saying like, you're on a call, she was like, yeah, but that was my lawyer for this and this. And I'm like, all right. She did apologize, but there was a excuse for every single fault that she had. Like, you know, and I make the distinction between an explanation and an excuse. Um, and explanation is like, Oh, this happened because that an excuse. The difference for me is the intention, because if you give an excuse, right? You expect the past because. Well, you gave an excuse, I should forgive and give you a pass. Um, but I hope she, she understood, but I hope that's not going to happen again. But the problem is there were like other instances in other classes with other course shows with that person that didn't give me high hopes. That, and I don't want now to be like a prophet and play in the future, but it's hard now for me to recalibrate myself when I'm next to that person in the class. I'm like, you know, to give that person a fair chance.

Barb 13:40

Are you going to give her like another strike and then she's out? Or did you say anything like that?

Benyi 13:48

Uh, no, I didn't put any ultimate term. I just told her like, this cannot happen. Like if she's interested in stuff, but yeah. So right now, exactly. That kind of, that kind of, um, idea across my mind is that somebody, but like, okay, my problem with me is, and we're going to board that letter in the, uh, in the topic. It's like, sometimes I struggle between listening to my gut feeling and listening to Lord, uh, to, um, empirical evidence, like for me, um, and it, it bite me in the ass before. Not to listen to my intuition and to wait for empirical evidence that somebody did wrong, did me wrong before I did. Right. Like I said, there were like other instances in the class, in other classes where like, I saw that her lack of motivation and she wanted to take my class. And I was not even, I didn't even think she was going to show up, but then did she show up and I wanted to give that person a fair chance and that happened. So like I have a kind of confirmation bias now where I'm like, I'm like, you see. Like now, what, like, is this going to happen again? Uh, do I have to like, because the last thing that I want to do, and I know, and we stayed last time, I'm a person who can, um, instill fear into somebody. Right. And that's the last thing I want to do. I don't want her to be uncomfortable. I don't want her to be afraid of me, but at the same time, I want her to respect those boundaries because for me, this is not a joke. Yeah.

Barb 15:33

Can i do a little bit of coaching with you on this right now yeah

Benyi 15:36

sure yeah and i will be probably help everybody who's listening

Barb 15:40

yeah yeah so when you said to her this can't happen again that is you thinking that you're setting a boundary if you know what you're gonna do if she does it again and you're there's gonna be some of the consequence for her than it is a boundary but if you don't know what you're gonna do, And you're just gonna say it to her again. It's not really a boundary. So to make it really clear, um, if this were to happen again, what I would say is this can't happen again. And if it does, you're out of my class. Or whatever your consequences or i'm gonna give you like two more chances you know like you decide ahead of time because real boundaries have some kind of consequence and the consequences what you do if the person doesn't honor your boundary because if you say. This can't happen again and then she shows up late next time and she's on the phone and all that and you have to talk again and then she does it again it wasn't really a boundary because you didn't do anything. Except talk to her you didn't change anything. So you, what you might consider doing is before class next week, or when she first gets there is say, you know, I didn't come right out and say this last time, but like, if this happens again, then you're out. But if she comes late, then you can be like, you know, because you are jeopardizing your own personal space because you said, you know, you have the, I don't remember how you described it, but like seeing her kind of, you know, is difficult for you. And you are not in your best form as the teacher of the class and exactly you need to be in your best form so if you have a student that is pulling your attention away. And is making you have all kinds of feelings then that's not the right student for you so you are you are the boundary isn't just for you and is it isn't just for her it's for your the well being of your class.

Benyi 17:39

Yes, exactly.

Barb 17:41

Yeah.

Benyi 17:42

Yeah. You got it. You, you on it, you on it, you on the body right there. And yeah, like, uh, you're right. And, um, like thinking about it now was that exactly the struggle between like waiting for empirical evidence, because for me, it might be a little bit too much to set that ultimate term that, you know, the welcome, if on the first strike, you know, like.

Barb 18:13

Well, she had three strikes in one day. It wasn't one strike. Yeah, three strikes, three strikes

Benyi 18:18

in one day. Yeah, right. And if

Barb 18:22

it was simply that she showed up late, that's one thing. If, or she had just been on the phone, that's one thing. But she did three things on top of the fact that you had already had evidence before she started your class of her behavior. So you called it, um, how did you say that? Something confirmation bias, I would say that you had some evidence and she corroborated the evidence that you already had,

Benyi 18:49

you

Barb 18:49

know, I mean, I can see how you could call it confirmation bias, but, um, Yeah, I mean, it sounds like she's got a pattern and you saw it before and you've seen it again and chances are high you will be seeing it again.

Benyi 19:05

Oh, yeah. And now that's a perfect segue for the next question is how do you enforce those boundaries without feeling guilty?

Barb 19:20

Well, it doesn't happen overnight, but it's kind of the long game in terms of how you come to not feel guilty about your boundaries. And it's really about being situated in your own life, in your own body and what matters to you. That's why I say it's the long game and so for me, the way that I work with my clients and what worked for me is, you know, I, it took me a while to figure out somebody was like, how do you know what your boundaries are? Like, how do you know where the boundary is for you? And I was like, you know, that's an excellent question. I thought about it. It's like, well, it's by what's important to you, what matters to you? So I wish I had understood that in the beginning, but now that I understand that when I start coaching with clients, I have them identify their top five values. So that they can use those values as guideposts for when and where to set boundaries. So health is a really easy example because most people can identify with it. So, you know, I have abused and neglected myself for decades and, um, I'm not doing that anymore. And so health is a really important value for me. So when I set boundaries that uphold and support my health, if someone else Wants to lay a guilt trip on me or make me feel bad about doing it. I really don't feel bad about it because my life is at stake here. Like I know that I'm doing this for me and the more you set boundaries, the easier it gets. And you know, I mentioned being sort of situated in your own life, in your own body, um, in your own values. Most people with poor boundaries are not situated within themselves. They're still in other people's lives. And they're in other people's minds. Like what are they doing? What are they thinking? And so we want to be focused on ourselves and work from what's going on internally here. So when I do that more and more, I feel, um, that my life is about me and for me. It doesn't mean I don't do things to support and help other people. I do all the time, but it means I'm not so invested in you and what you think. And so for me, I'm not going to feel guilty that I'm upholding and supporting my health. And promoting my health when someone lays a guilt trip. So an example I use all the time, I think it'd probably be pretty easy for people to identify with. So I'm in recovery for compulsive overeating and I plan and weigh my food. And, um, I eat three meals and two snacks a day at approximately the same time. So let's say somebody says, Hey, Barb, we want you to go to this brunch buffet on Sunday. I'm going to decline. Number one, three, 11 o'clock in the morning is not a good time for me to eat. Number two, buffets don't work for me because I want to eat all of it. Um, number three, um, I go to church on Sunday. So like there's all these reasons that I'm going to be like, no, thanks. Maybe we can have coffee at another time. I also, it's not that I never go out for to eat with people, but I try not to socialize over food. I try to do like coffee or go for a walk or something like that. So if I say to them, I'm going to pass, or I'd rather, you know, do something else, if they want to make me feel bad for doing that, it's not because I'm really invested in taking good care of myself. And if you're the kind of person who is more invested in, Me going out to brunch with you, then and me taking care of myself. Are you really the kind of person that I want to have in my life? And my guess is that you're like, when you asked that you were not so much talking about when other people try to lay a guilt trip on you, you were talking about the internal guilt and shame that that arises. And that's honestly, that's the number one reason. That's the number one question that I get. How do I get rid of the guilt and shame? And it's the number one reason that people either don't set boundaries or they cave on their boundaries. And again, it's a long game, but it's about your integrity. So, um, the way I think of it is this, like, you know, I'm a former people pleaser, so I would say yes to things I didn't really want to do. Um, I would act like things were fine with me when they weren't. When somebody say, how are you? I'd be like, I'm fine. I'm not fine. You know, I might even say no to things I really wanted to do. So in other words, I was out of integrity with myself. I was not being an honest person. And so when I start making decisions in my life and setting boundaries and alignment with my values, I'm coming back into integrity with myself. Integrity, Benny is another word for wholeness. So when you are whole, that guilt and shame just does not come up as much. And so, um, and, and there's no coincidence that the name of my podcast is fragmented to whole life lesson recovery, because I sort of, well, for recovery, when I look back, I can see, I felt like I was a bunch of fragmented pieces floating around in space. They had spaces between them and other people's shit could get in between my spaces and recovery, especially the part of building healthy boundaries, integrated all of those fragmented pieces into one coherent whole. And so I think of it like this. I can be rocked by things that happened to me, but I can't be shattered by them because I'm whole. Well, if you think about whole things. Like, am I gonna like the guilt and shame is not going to reverberate through my system because I don't have all those cracks the way that I used to, I'm whole. So it's not going to take me down. And the better you get it. At setting boundaries, the less likely those feelings are going to come up. And, you know, it's one of those things where there's like a snowball of fact that as you get better about boundaries and better about boundaries and better about boundaries, you feel better about yourself. You're more situated in yourself. And then the guilt and shame just doesn't even come up. I mean, every once in a while I might have a tiny, teeny, tiny little trickle. Of some kind of feeling like that, but, you know, 99 plus percent of the time, I don't have feelings of guilt and shame because I'm living my life purposely and with intention, I am living a life of meaning and purpose. I'm not going to be swayed from my life of meaning and purpose by someone else trying to push me to do something that doesn't work for me. I'm not going to be swayed by someone trying to lay a guilt. Nobody does this to me anymore. It doesn't happen. It used to happen all the time. Never happens anymore. Yeah. Because people see I'm firm in, in what I'm saying. Now. You know, as a reminder, I was never like that before. So I want people to know, like what I'm saying to you sounds completely foreign. You think that can't happen for me? I'm here to tell you, I'm here to show you I'm living proof. Like I caved all the time on things and I just don't anymore, but I took, you know, I would say for me, it took me two to three years before I really had pretty, you know, really decent boundaries. Um, And I did it through this meandering haphazard path through the 12 steps of recovery. And it's not like recovery is like, here's how to build boundaries. It just sort of was a by product for me because my core wound is codependence. Boundaries are the antidote. That was just magic for me. And so what I did after I learned how to build boundaries and I, I realized like how, what game changers they were for me. I started reading about them. And when I was reading, I, I started drawing like visuals for like, what would that look like to me? Cause I'm a pretty visual person. And then those drawings turned into handouts, which turned into a workbook, which is the backbone of my boundaries coaching program. And I've created this. Accelerated pathway for people to create boundaries. I have a whole curriculum on it, and so people can learn how to build healthy boundaries in a matter of weeks through coaching with me instead of doing this haphazard meandering path over 2 to 3 years the way I did because I realized such dramatic changes in my life from having healthy boundaries. Like I want that for other people. Um, and so that, like, we start with the values because I know like that is the thing that's going to get you to be able to handle the guilt and shame, which is the number one reason and I don't, I do have, um, a couple of, um, podcast episodes about feelings in my curriculum about boundaries. I don't, I mainly deal with the people's feelings on the coaching calls. It's not so much part of the curriculum. But it absolutely is something I deal with, with a hundred percent of my clients, because that's the hardest part about boundaries.

Benyi 28:37

That's the hardest part. Yeah. Wow. That was a beautiful and integrity, by the way, might be one of those core values that everybody should have. If they want, you know, like what, when you say like, you should pick like your five values, that makes you, you, um, like, uh, a question that, um, I don't know if devil's advocate, but is there a risk. To go. Um, at the other extreme of, uh, uh, set the setting boundaries and being a kind of, um, intolerant and jumping the gun too soon.

Barb 29:10

So, um, yeah. So, um, I'll answer that in a couple ways. Number one.

Benyi 29:17

When I

Barb 29:17

started forming boundaries, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know that was what I was doing. But the first time that I remember, Oh, this is me setting a boundary. This was me way out way too harsh right now. The only, if I had known it was going to be too harsh, Benny, that is not the boundary I would have set. Obviously, right? I had to set it and know that was a little too harsh. I need to back off next time. So there's that that can happen because I don't know what my limits are in the beginning because I never had any. So I have to do it. So learning how to set boundaries is an experimental process by nature. So it could happen occasionally as you're experimenting. But in terms of becoming a person who goes way too far the other side and is just, you know, blocking people like those are not the kind of people that come to me. If you start out being a people pleaser, you're never going to turn into the kind of person who has just asshole boundaries. It's just not in your, right? So if that's what you're talking about, I don't think that's really a problem. Now, there are definitely people who have those problems that their boundaries are super, super strong. And they're way too rigid. Those are not the people that I coach. That's not, those aren't my people. Cause that wasn't me. I mean, I might be able to help them, but they're not my ideal client. My ideal client has way too loose boundaries.

Benyi 30:37

Yeah, no, I was asking the question because, you know, like when, uh, a person has been abused in one direction, the, the natural reaction is to go to the opposite extreme instead of finding the right balance. Right. So, yeah, that was why I was curious.

Barb 30:53

Yeah. I mean, it's extremely rare because most of the people I work with, you would think the natural reaction would go the opposite direction, but they're so afraid to set that first boundary that, that, that it's not going to happen. Now here, here's what I see though. So I have a whole bunch of tips in my communications module, my, my developing empowered communication module. And one of those tips is be polite. And here's why I have that. Because what happens for people that are over givers with poor boundaries and people pleasers is they wait and wait and wait and wait and wait until they get pushed way too far and then they explode, which is what I think you're talking about. Okay, well, they explode because they didn't set the boundary early. But here's the problem. When they explode, it typically works. So they think this is what boundary setting is. I have to explore where they will listen to me. But the reality is. If you set the boundary immediately, so this is my number one tip is to be prompt. The moment you know, I need to set a boundary. That's when you said it. You don't wait for the right time because the right time never comes and you build up all this tension. You're like, Oh my God, what am I going to say? If you just say it and get it over with, you have given yourself like it's a lot easier to relax after you've said it. You've been polite to them by letting them know the truth right away. So there's a proverb, which I believe is a Chinese proverb that I think is illustrative here. And the proverb is this, the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The next best time to plant a tree is today.

Benyi 32:29

So

Barb 32:29

the best time to set a boundary with someone was the day you met them. The next best time is today. So even if you have never set a boundary before with this person and they're doing the same thing over and over again, as soon as you realize, Oh my God, it's time for me to set a boundary. And you say to them, this is not going to work for me anymore and you get it over with and it's just, it's done and you've said it, you know, so, um, not exploding is ideal, but in the beginning you might, and I, and I also want to add something else. So, in, in, especially in 12 step recovery for things like code of people, like codependence, anonymous, Al Anon. Um, A. C. A. So these are people that have these, you know, boundary issues like me, um, a common phrase that people learn when they first come in is no is a complete sentence and this is true, but I'm not a fan of saying that unless someone just won't take no for an answer or they're toxic or dangerous or inebriate or something, but don't walk around saying no is a complete sentence. Now, some people who've never said no before. Okay. Go around saying no is a complete sentence to people because that's what they feel like they have to do to stand firm in their boundary so that could happen but it doesn't usually last it's usually like once they are see that I can stand firm in my boundary I can stand firm and I know they stop saying no is a complete sentence because they're more saying it for themselves. They might be saying it for the other people, too, but they're more saying it for themselves. Like, oh, I've said, no, I'm going to stick to my no, and I need to hear myself out loud. Say no was a complete sentence so that can happen. But it's it doesn't typically last. I don't see that lasting with people. And again, I'm not a fan of that because I'm a fan of politeness. Unless someone is dangerous or toxic or inebriated, or they just won't take no for an answer, then go ahead and be a jerk.

Benyi 34:25

Okay, we have your blessing on that. But, uh, oh, so yeah, um. That's funny you mentioned 12 step program because that, that, that's a illustration for my next question. So, oh, you all circled, so it all connects, like, you know, it's like, um, like, yeah, it all connects. So, like, remember earlier I mentioned that, uh, with, uh, that student who took my class. I had, um, I seen things that, you know, made me believe that that was the behavior that was going to ensure with, you know, her not respecting the class. Um, so I found myself, um, in situations where Um, for lack of better word, I judge people on what I see, like, you know, not like full judgment, but definitely enough of a pattern for me to stop, to be, what do I do it to establish, to be able to establish boundaries? Like I see patterns in behavior and people, I'm like, I don't like what I see, I don't want to know that person, that person now talks to me, I'm like, Colds like I'm now using the specific example with the 12 step program. I go to, I go to a, there's, um, there's a meeting I like to go to because we, we have the big book. So there's two meetings that day. There's a big book meeting and there's the, uh, the normal meeting in the big room. I dislike with a passion, the normal meeting at the big, in the, in the room of that meeting, because. Like the energy that's there is it's young people mostly, but it's like, I'm going to be honest. It's people just hanging out, just trying to date each other and that kind of stuff. And I don't really

Barb 36:27

focused on recovery.

Benyi 36:28

Yeah, it's not that part is like, they say the right words, but the energy is not there. The behavior of the people is not there, but the big book meeting where we sit down and we read the book is. So when I go there, the big book, sometime I interact with other people, I, I cannot stop thinking that I, I don't belong. I know I don't belong in that other group, but I cannot, it's not like, I just cannot tell them straight to their face that I think you guys suck. That's what I don't want to talk to those people. But you know, like just for the sake of argument and also being diplomatic and that we live in society. Um, like I have those firm boundaries that I established, but you know, what's funny when I talk to some of those people who like to hang out individually, they're great. Like, you know, when I can get to have a conversation one on one with them, but when they're all together and there's mass effect, there's virtual signaling, there's all those like components that come in play, or there's a pretty girl running around. Like there's a guy like that, that dance. I don't want to be part of that masquerade and sometime I might be jumping the gun on. I think I make a judgment call on what I see to establish a boundaries. Of somebody who I might not be friends with and sometime I'm right. Sometime I'm like, I picked them wrong. So,

Barb 38:02

you know, like, uh,

Benyi 38:02

what's the, yeah. What's, uh, what's your take on that? Like, is it okay to, for lack of better word, judge a person based on what you see to set healthy boundaries, even if you don't know them for sure.

Barb 38:16

So humans are judging, discerning creatures. It is impossible to not make judgments, right? We can't not do it. Um, so I think, so there's that, and then there's, I want to say this, like, your boundaries are for you, they are not against other people, like that helps my boundaries are for me, they're not against other people, other people might feel like they're against them, but that's not what they're for, that's not the intention of them, my boundaries are for me to take care of me and protect me, so I can live my life in alignment with my values, because I'm living my life You're living yours and you get to do whatever you want. I get to do whatever I want, except for that. You can't cross my boundaries. Right. So, so there's that. And I think, you know, there's a difference between making a judgment and being judgmental, right? So a judgment is this doesn't work for me. Judgmental is those people are assholes. Right. So like, it's fine to decide this meeting doesn't really work for me because you need to take care of your, you go to the meetings for recovery, not for, it sounds like drama is what it sounds like to me you're talking about. So you go to the meetings for recovery, not for socializing, not that you don't socialize and recovery, but that's not the main purpose. The main purpose is to get the message and to carry it with you when you walk out the door. And so if that's not what you're getting, then that's not the right meeting for you and you get to make that, that decision. But you know, when we're talking about this, I can't, this keeps popping up in my mind, so I'm just going to go ahead and share it. So one of the, um, Huge realizations I had in recovery, which is actually tied to boundaries, is that I was so afraid to be judged by other people that I did a lot of what I call image management. So I had a lot of masks up and facades up and I would say yes things and all that stuff. And it was ultimately that I was afraid people were going to judge me and reject me. And then I was like, well, wait a minute. Like I said before, we are judging, discerning creatures. We cannot not make judgments about the world. It's just not possible. How about if they judge me by the actual me instead of these fake versions of me, you're gonna judge me anyway. So I'd rather be the authentic me and have you judged that version of me than this. One of the fake versions. Of me, you know, so I, I did a lot of image management and, you know, I, I mean, I'm sure I still do some to some degree, but it's not, I don't live there a hundred percent of the time. Like I constantly was so, and I didn't even know it. That's the other thing. I didn't understand how focused I was on getting other people's approval. But now I'm like, you know what? I'm going to be judged. That's just how it works. So let them judge me for the actual me. So. You know, I'll give an example. I've sworn a couple of times here. I swear a lot. It's just what I do. And I swear a lot on my part.

Benyi 41:21

That makes it like, you know, a little more real. Yeah. Go ahead.

Barb 41:24

That's what people say is like, they, they're like, you seem authentic to me, especially if they swear now. And I've had, I've 580 something at 500, 280 something episodes of my podcast. I've been doing it for five and a half years, three times in five and a half years, has anybody ever said anything negative to me about my swearing? But I have scores of people who say, Oh my God, I love that you swear. You know, like, if you don't like swearing, listen to a different podcast. Like I have nothing against you, but I'm not going to change my podcast. And I don't like. You get to judge me for the actual person. I'm not going to pretend that I don't swear, you know, it's just not going to work. I mean, if I'm a guest on a podcast and they're like, this is a clean podcast, I can make it through their episode, but I can't do it on mine because that's, yeah, that's not who I really

Benyi 42:19

know.

Barb 42:20

And if people want to judge me for swearing, fuck it, go ahead, judge because I actually swear. And I'm not your person. And I, you know, it doesn't mean you're not my person, but you know, I have plenty of friends that don't swear. But,

Benyi 42:37

you know,

Barb 42:38

go ahead and judge me as one who swears, because that's what I do.

Benyi 42:43

That's crazy. And like, what did you just say here? Illustrate maybe one of the, um, one of the phenomenon that happens when two people, uh, just start dating is that the honeymoon phase. They maybe were wearing mask where they were trying to say like, Oh, let me see what I can do. So like, I can look attractive or play, you know, to that other person, but then we're not being their authentic self. And it leads me to to these questions, like speaking of attraction. You know, I don't know, but like I noticed that people are because of attraction are either knowingly or unwillingly or unknowingly solely like, uh, letting the other person step over the boundaries and sometimes it doesn't affect them. So. Here's the question. If you're attracted to a person and they step over your boundaries, but you're not offended by that at the beginning, should you still enforce them? Because, you know, like there's been so many situation. I'm sure the people are going to notice that the, where like the, the other person who's been doing what they've been doing forever, one day the partner is like, by the way, what you do. What do you do? This does, I don't like it, but I've been doing it since we know each other. So what's the big deal? Yeah.

Barb 44:20

Yeah. I mean, I think, um, it could be the case that it actually didn't bother you and then it does. And then you just tell the truth and say, you know, this never bothered me before, but for some reason it does now. And I feel like I need to bring it to your attention because if I did it, that I would feel like there was something between us and I don't want anything between us. So you just tell the truth. But you know, if something bothers you in the beginning, then you say something. I mean, this is one of the things that, um, really I think set the foundation of my relationship, by the way, yesterday was my six year anniversary with my sweetheart. This is the first and only healthy relationship I've ever had. And I just like, I feel like we deserve an award because he was married for 25 and nothing, you know, they were nothing like, you know, what, what we have. But about three weeks into our dating, um, we had a situation where I had invited him to go to an event with me and he didn't respond until 10 o'clock in the evening when I was home from the event and previous to that, he'd been very responsive to me. And I was like, I feel really unsettled about this. So I texted him after he texted me and I said, um, I'm feeling unsettled about the fact that you didn't respond until now. Can you help me talk with you about this tomorrow? And he was like, absolutely. So I had never done anything like this before, Benny, I had never, I'd never been that up front with someone. I always just held on to that shit and built up a resentment and held it against them and then explode like that. But like, I was in recovery now, I have healthy boundaries now, I know how to openly and directly communicate with people. I just tell people the truth, right? So I did a couple things. One, I let him know I felt unsettled, and number two, I asked him for help. And what I've learned, it's my experience as a heterosexual woman. That at least heterosexual men enjoy being asked for help by women, especially the women that are dating. I didn't, I don't think I even really understood that, but I knew it would be easier for me to talk to him about it if I asked him. So we talked about it the next day and the situation was that the situation is this, he is on disability and he has to manage his energy. And I am a very active person and he did not want to get sucked into my world. I asked him to go to a pitch event for other entrepreneurs and, um, he, like he didn't even know this to be honest with you as we processed it. He realized that the reason he didn't want to go with me, cause he didn't want to get sucked into my world. Cause when he looks at my calendar, he's like, cause he sees all

Benyi 47:10

my

Barb 47:10

calendar and he's like, I don't, I don't have the energy for that. Like, I can't, I can't get sucked into that. I don't want to get sucked into that. And I said, well, I would have appreciated it if you had just said that. And he said, well, I kind of discovered that in the process of this conversation. The other thing he said to me was, I assumed. That by not responding to you, that was my response. And I was like, Oh no, that is no,

Benyi 47:36

hell no. What

Barb 47:38

is not a response that will not do for the future. But actually let me back up and say, when I sat down with him to talk, this is how I started the conversation. I said, thank you so much for agreeing to have this conversation with me. I see this conversation as an opportunity. For us to increase the intimacy of our relationship, and I hope you do, too. So I set the tone. What's this is not going to be an argument. This is not going to be a fight. This is about us increasing our level of intimacy. And that's precisely what happened. So I feel like that conversation literally laid the groundwork for our entire relationship because we dealt with the very first difficulty that we had the first day that it came up. We didn't push it under the rug, we told the truth to each other, we both learned these skills in recovery, you know, we know how to relate to other humans now, we told the truth, and he also apologized to me, and I said, you know, now that I know that you don't want to get sucked into my world, I'm not going to invite you to these things anymore, you know, and if you ever change your mind and decide you want to go, let me know, I'd be happy to invite you, but I don't want to put you in the position of having to refuse, All the time and for me, I wasn't get, I, I wanted him to see this is what I do. I wasn't expecting him to come back with me again, but I wanted him to know, like, when I say, oh, I went to a pitch event, like, what am I talking about? What happens at those things, but it wasn't about like, I need you to come with me all the time. So we got to have that conversation. And so now, for me, um, like the fact that he has healthy boundaries and I have healthy boundaries have everything to do with the reason that we're able to be together for six years and still be like lovebirds.

Benyi 49:33

Okay, that's that's amazing. It just made me think of like this before we close. So when you guys establish like boundaries like this, what, what happened, do you think in the back of the mind when somebody respect, do you, I'm going to ask you for you, do you, when he's, he said that he doesn't want to be stuck in your world. And so do you live with the hope that one day he might change his mind and come check it out or like you

Barb 50:06

just like,

Benyi 50:08

Reality that no, that's not going to happen,

Barb 50:11

right? So I used to, I used to be, I used to like, I would listen to what the person said. And it was really subconscious. Benny. I mean, when I look back, I can see how many times I truly deeply inside subconsciously believed they're going to change. But consciously, if you had said to me, are you trying to change that? I'd be like, oh, no, I'm not trying to change them. But really, I was.

Benyi 50:34

Okay.

Barb 50:34

So when someone says to me, I don't want to get sucked into your world. I take that at face value, you know, I'm not trying to suddenly change him into someone like, so, um, when I first got into recovery, I was listening to the dating coach, Matthew Hussey. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He, I don't know if he ever used the word boundaries, but he was talking about boundaries all over the place. And one of the things he said that I love the most that I quote all the time is this, you shouldn't have to time travel to date someone. So if someone is not dateable today, the day that you meet them, then they're not dateable because you're dating them now, not in the future. So if you think, Oh, in the future, he's going to be the kind of person who's going to want to get sucked into my world. Don't date him because he's not wanting to be sucked into your world right now. If he says, I don't want to have children, then, and you know, you want to have children, don't date him because that's a gigantic thing that, yeah, it's possible that there are some humans have changed their mind about that, but don't invest in that, right? You're just living, you're like dating this future version. You're time traveling to this version of him that doesn't exist yet that may never stop doing that. Like live in the reality of who this person says they are today. And that, to me, is related to We fall in love with people's potential. I remember when I heard somebody in a recall, I was like, Oh, that's the story of my life. I fall in love with people's potential and instead of dating who they are right now, I date who I could see them becoming someday. And I know, like, if you're in your twenties and you're trying to find a life mate, like, there's some reasonableness to that. Like, you could see the person growing on the same sort of trajectory as you, because, like, when you're just out of college, you're not going to have the level of, like, resources and income that you're going to have in the years to come. But if you're thinking that this person who's never held down a job is someday going to be a secure provider for your family, you're, you're, you're wrong. Delusional, right? So don't travel. Don't do you don't don't time travel to date people.

Benyi 52:55

Yeah, I've definitely been victim of that befalling in love with people's potential instead of who they are right now. But yeah, so that was it. Oh, we are like 51 minute mark. Oh man, he went so fast. Like, all right. So, uh, Do you have a question for me? What, uh, you know, I will give you the floor to conclude. Uh, I think we should probably do some kind of promotion of your book on my platform. I don't know if you want to send me some, um, some, um, image or like Instagram posts that I can put, because I think it's really important.

Barb 53:33

Sure, yeah.

Benyi 53:34

Yeah.

Barb 53:34

So I think, um, you know, I'm a boundaries coach. Um, in my private coaching I coach anybody, but in my groups I coach women. Um, I have a free boundary building starter kit. You can go to boundaries starter kit.com. However, if you already know from listening to me that you think you might wanna work with me, if you go to barb chat.net. You can sign up for a three free 30 minute better boundaries call. This is where you and I kind of figure out, are we a good fit for each other? Um, and there's no, you know, there's no pressure. I will take you through a series of questions to see like, are you the type of client that I feel like I can help? And then I will share some things with you to have you decide, does, does Barb feel like a good fit for me? So that's barb chat. net or boundaries starter kit. com. And then, Um, I'm on Instagram and higher power coaching.

Benyi 54:26

All right. Thank you for my end. I'm going to add those notes to the podcast description as I did last time. Uh, and yeah, um, all right, Bob, thank you very much and guys, I will see you in two weeks. Yeah. All right. Well,

Barb 54:42

thank you again for inviting me back.

Benyi 54:45

Yes.