Benyi 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 days clean and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know. Will I ever drink again? I do not know. This is how Stairway to Redemption was born. It is my search for answer in a real time process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what is going to work for you. It is our journey together. Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Stairway to Redemption. This week, I have the honor, sorry, to host, with the utmost respect, since he's my sponsor sponsor, not only that. But he leads a weekly big book study at a local meeting. After sharing his story, we're going to talk about spirituality and especially spiritual awakening and what it means to be spiritually fit. Um, so guys, I give you Luis. Luis, so tell us your story. Um, how did you end up to the rooms of AA and also how did you end up leading a big book study? Um, you can take as much time you want, you know, like you can, as many details you, you, uh,

Luis 1:56

comfortable with. So, okay. Um, well, how, how did I get to the rooms? And I, essentially I earned my seat. I was a broken human being. I was broken in every way possible, mind, body, and spirit. And, um, I entered the rooms, um, initially for the first time in what would have been June of 96. I didn't stay very long. Um, but we entered the rooms again in October of 1996, same year, at which point, um, at that point when I came in, um, essentially I had, um, had, I was broken in spirit to the point where I was just willing to do anything, um, to get out of, you know, the, the situation that my life had become, which was, I, I used the term broken, but, um, there literally wasn't any aspect of my life that just wasn't a complete disaster. And, um, I would add a disaster of my own making. I was very, very fortunate when I, when I came in the second time around, um, is that I quickly met the person who was, uh, turned out to be my sponsor and he was somebody who was grounded in the big book. And, um, he didn't waste any time. Uh, we, we started working the program immediately, maybe within two months of, um, me getting into the rooms is when I met him maybe four to six weeks when I was in the rooms and we got started immediately and he took us through our program of recovery as outlined in the big book of alcohol synonymous, and he started. Not even at the title page. He started at the blank page, proceeding the title page and took me through our program, um, literally page by page, line by line. Um, and with his, with his guidance, I was, uh, essentially established a relationship with Apollo greater than myself, which was, um, essentially the beginning, right? The beginning of my journey in recovery. Um, you know, that was almost 28 years ago. Wow. So a lot, so, so a lot's happened and, um, 28 years, um, many highs, many lows. How did I get to where the point where I facilitate big book, um, experience meetings, well, that's, I grew up on that. I literally grew up on that. The, the first big book experience meeting that I'm aware of that was in, at the time, what I would consider Queens, um, started in my sponsor's bookstore. He owned a recovery bookstore and he had several sponsors and we used to come in on Wednesdays. It just was coincidentally, nobody coordinated this. We would meet in his bookstore on Wednesday nights. He'd sit behind the counter there smoking. And there were, um, two or three of us and we were always there and we were always just talking, um, you know, we're talking about recovery, talking about the program. And one day we just sort of looked at each other and we said, um, geez, you know, why don't we make a meeting out of this? And so we agreed to like, okay, next week, everybody try to bring at least one person. And we started, we started a big book experience. I'm meeting at the, the, we, we, we started a new AA group. It was called steps by the book. It was on union turnpike off 164th street Queens. And, um, my sponsor took the first cycle. I mean, we were a very small group. It was just him taking us to do the book. We had all of us, most of us had already either were currently working with him through the book or had already been taken through the book with him. And, and, and that was my early recovery. Um, I was very, very fortunate in that respect because I hear so many, so many stories about people who had really had been in the rooms maybe for quite a long time before they actually heard the real program of recovery, they may have been exposed to the culture, the recovery, but not necessarily the program of recovery. Um, in my case, I was, um, I was very fortunate to basically meet this person. And, um, and so, you know, once we, once that group started. It wasn't long before I was taking my own turns at facilitating. And although that group took many shapes and forms over the really almost three decades, the genesis of that group still exists today. It's called Circle of Life Group now in Hicksville. But like a little band of nomads, we did travel to other locations. Um, the bookstore is not even there now. It's a shame you drive, if you drive past it, it's a nail salon. Oh, man. But, but, but the program still exists. And so. Um, and, and, and it's not just facilitating because I see facilitating as really just an extension of my experience of taking other men through our program. It was emphasized to me in the strongest terms at the very, very beginning, how vital it was for my own recovery to carry this message to other people. And I have done my best to do that. And, um, I'm a big believer in when I find somebody who's willing to go through our program, we just get, I, I take, I take them through the book just the way I was. We start, uh, we get a big book, we open up to that blank page and that's where we start. And, um, I mean, I, I don't have a counter or anything, but I've been very blessed in recovery. I would say, you know, I've worked with maybe two to 300 men. Over the past, you know, not quite 28 years that I've been sober.

Benyi 8:22

Uh huh.

Luis 8:23

So, when you think of each of those experiences, the book is being revealed to me, what people miss out, one of the things that I feel people miss out on is, you see, when I'm, when you take, when I take someone through the book, I'm having that experience all over again.

Benyi 8:40

Yeah.

Luis 8:41

I'm now again, once again, feeling the depth of that first step experience. You know, I'm realizing, you know, like how much more I have to double my spiritual efforts if I'm going to continue to grow. And um, you know, it, it's, and, and then, and then essentially the book then begins to, at least from my experience too, it, it comes alive. You see? Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I. I still have my original big book as a sort of more as a memento. Uh

Benyi 9:16

huh. I,

Luis 9:18

I had, um, first time I got separated from drugs and alcohol was essentially after a 26 year run. And, um, I went to a rehab in May of 1996. That was the first time in my, um, certainly since I could remember that I had been separated for any period of time. And I went away to rehab and the first thing, one of the things they handed me was a soft covered big book and um, and somebody told me, Oh, you should read this. This book is important. You know, I didn't think, you know, I was totally, not only was I ignorant about recovery, I was ignorant about what the illness is, you know, recovery. But, um, so I, you know, of course I picked up the big book. Uh, I skipped all the pages that, you know, that are in Roman numerals, cause obviously they can't be important. They don't even have numbers. And I went right, you know, I wait, I wait, I wait, right. To build story, you know, and, um, a page one, chapter one, you know, Here we were young, new men, you know, from Plattsburgh, feeling heroic, blah blah, you know, et cetera. And I was like, what the hell is this crap? So I don't think I said crap. And I shut that book and I didn't open that book. That book was in pristine condition when I met my sponsor, um, later that year. Because, um, you know, later that same year in October of 1996, I had what I would call a vital spiritual experience and, um, or a moment of clarity, um, that instilled in me the willingness. And so when I came back in October of 96, Um, I had a willingness that I'd never been able to bring about before. Anyway, to get to the point of the book, what was the point of my story, um, you know, when you go through the book the first couple of times, maybe you sit through a few, uh, Big Book experience meetings. You know, the typical thing is you're, you're, you're underlining, you're highlighting, you got things written in the margin. You've got all of this information that you've now, wow, this is great revelation and true or false, it's just an instruction, that's a promise, and that book is chewed up, I've got it, I'm looking at it now, it's on the bookshelf, it's got masking tape keeping it together. But they became a point in time when I realized when I was working with others, and I'm using the book, that it became stale to me. And the reason it became stale to me is that I was so bent on regurgitate, regurg, regurgitate, and I'm probably mispronouncing that same old, the, the same old stuff that I had written in my margins and this and that and so, and forth, you know? Mm-Hmm. so that it becomes still, it was no longer. It was no longer real. It was just something I was spitting out. And, um, and it occurred to me that I should put that book on the shelf and just start with a blank book. And now for, you see, it's, it's been maybe 20 something years now. If you notice it, um, when I, when we show up at the meeting that you, that we, you and I met, I don't bring a book.

Benyi 12:34

Yeah, that's true. You, you, yeah, you use whatever book is there. Like, yeah, I noticed that. That's

Luis 12:40

right. And it. And I know, you know, when you see a person walk in with a big book with notes and dog eared, dog eared, uh, dog eared pages, that's a person who's really working their big book, and I respect that, and I'm not trying to, you know, negate that, that's, but for me, when I'm facilitating, when I'm reading with another, uh, fellow traveler, right, by that book being completely blank, It becomes alive because now I'm being guided of the spirit of the book and, um, you know, over the years, listen, when you're in front of a room and depending on the format, you know, you have a half hour or an hour to basically, um, go through the book and share experience and insights and so forth. A lot of that is just very kinetic to me. A lot is, a lot is inspired just in that moment, in that breath, a lot is inspired by the people in the room who add their own insight and, and, and interjections and experience that then open brand new doors that I'd never even traveled on. new paths that, um, uh, that I've never been on before when it comes to our program, to our literature. And so the book comes very much alive to me, which is a blessing. It can also be, um, sometimes it's boomerang on me because you, you know, if you, if you open your mouth enough, you're going to say something stupid. So, you know, the side point is that, you know, I, you know, I, You know, I, I've, I've been known to say things that maybe that wasn't the best thing we could have said.

Benyi 14:16

Oh boy. Uh, yeah, we, we got to come back to it later, but finish up. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Luis 14:23

No, no, that, that, that's really the point. So you, you asked the question, how I got in and how do I get to where I'm facilitated? That's kind of the journey with my experience with the book. Um, I, I'll make one last point to me. It sounds like a contradiction as far as the book is concerned. We need to be grounded in the literature of our program. Yes. Without that, that maintains the integrity of the program that also more importantly, gives us a fundamental basis to. communicate. We need a language to communicate because essentially, but we have to transcend the book. And so, so although I'm grounded in the literature, I'm not held to the word in that respect, you see, and, um, we need to transcend the book. It's the spirit of the book. That's vitally important because each journey that every person's on in our program is really an individual journey. I know this says we, but in my view, this is all about you as an individual entering upon a relationship with a power grading in yourself and then growing in that relationship and that itself, it, When we think about that, there are really even no words that one can put to that type of relationship to, to define it and to explain it. And so, um, so that, so there has to be that freedom, that dynamism. That exists so that you, that spirit can, can fill your, your heart, your soul, whatever metaphor you want to use to inspire you as you journey along the path. Um, if we're held to the word, you know, the word, you hear this phrase. The book, the book says, yeah, the big book camper,

Benyi 16:22

like they call them.

Luis 16:24

Well, you know, I, I, I don't, I, I know I'm saying it in a mocking term. It's because I'm not trying to mock anyone. What I'm really trying to do is highlight the point is that we can't be held to the word itself because that's rigid. That's just that then that puts, that puts a step, puts a car, that puts a structure. Of a hard fixed structure around the experience and that's like saying I'm going to put a hard fixed structure around the power of God and that's not possible. So, um, so when, when, when I'm in front of the room, I have no idea what I'm going to say from one moment to the next. That's hilarious. So, um, so that's how, you know, that's how I, that's, that's kind of my journey with our program. Um, the journey, get into that point. It's different, of course. Um, it's, um, And I don't know if you if you still want to kind of I could talk a little bit about that. Um, Yeah,

Benyi 17:34

go ahead

Luis 17:36

I was gonna say, you know for me this is Very much a spiritual journey and and I didn't walk into aa let's face it. I did not walk down into the rooms Because I was interested in getting on a spiritual journey. Let's make that very clear. Yes. That was not my intention. Um, but what's been revealed to me is that I had been on a spiritual journey all along. Oh, I see. Yes. Uh, and, and my, my, my problem as Silkworth points out. For my spiritual malady of restlessness, irritability, discontentedness, right? My solution to those things was the drug, the drink, the set. Um, Anything that was outside of me that gave me even a nanosecond of wholeness to fill that void that I was living with within my soul. Um, you know, I, I took that as comfort, you know, and of course, obviously over time that boomerang made not only almost destroyed me as an individual, as a, as a person on this planet, but really it was also destroying everybody I cared and loved. Um, that was anywhere within, you know, 50 square miles of me. So, um, you know, so, so, so to me, how I got to where I, where I went into the rooms in October, I, I used the phrase that that person that used to exist literally died. Because, um, I mentioned in may of 96 that I, um, that I was separated for the first time and, you know, listen, you get separated, you put on a few pounds, you take a few showers, you know, you catch up on a heck of a lot of sleep. Right. And, um, and, and then what do they do? They, you know, put on some fresh clothes, they pat you on the back. And, uh, they, they give you a big book that, you know, that you totally don't have any understanding of what it means. And they tell you, go out and make a meeting. And that's what I did, like everybody else. And you know what? And although physically and mentally, I might've been at the bare, the bottom of the bottom spiritually, I'd not been defeated yet because when I came into the rooms initially. I was picking and choosing what parts of the program I was going to see. I wasn't practicing the program. I was practicing my program and my program was totally different because I was. Ignorant of the nature of the illness. I thought this was something that I just needed to make some adjustments in my life to get this thing under control. Not realizing that, of course, there's no such thing as control. That's another delusion I lived with. You know, I was picking and choosing and, and, you know, I, I say how I met my sponsor after I came in October. I'm sure in the meetings I sat in. That there were plenty of people carrying a message of death and weight that there were plenty of people Talking about the solution, but I didn't hear them because I was too full I was not listening, see, and I don't find it a coincidence that, and so, and so when I went out and I went out, um, well, I was, I was bouncing in and out, but when I went out, out, out, out in late August of 96, um, I was on a death front. Oh, okay. And it, it was literally the blackest time of my life. And, and I, and I was trying to kill myself. In a cowardly way. Yeah. In a cowardly way, you see. I was just gonna drink and drug myself to oblivion, you see. And, um, and that's not, and every day, you know, cause there were days that I would go without sleep and eating. And every day I saw the sun come up, it was, it was not a blessing to see a sun. Right. It was a curse that, Oh God, I've got to go through another day of this. I've got to do another day of this existence. It's not even living, you know, um, And, and what I tell people is that, yeah, I was out to kill myself and guess what? I succeeded, I succeeded because the person that existed died. I, nothing, there was nothing different about the day my sob, my, my, my, my sobriety started or my recovery started because I wasn't sober yet, so I didn't have the tools. There's nothing different about that day. Then the countless days that went on before I didn't wake up that day and say, I'm going to choose to stop this time. I really want to stop for this time. I know what the consequences are. Okay. I could do the math. This is illogical. No rational human being would behave like this. It's time to stop. No, that was not how I came to this. It wasn't anything I had learned. It was nothing that I now knew about myself that told me, Hey, maybe it's a good idea to stop. I have been wanting to stop. I've been literally using against my will for two years, frankly, up to that point, except for the brief time that I went to rehab and here's the thing. That day, what I, my sober date was no different than any other day. Other day there was nothing within myself about myself that I put brought about that made the change I I truly believe in my heart of hearts that that was divine intervention And to cut a very long story short I had passed out of course because we don't really sleep we pass out. I had passed out And in October, back in those days, well, I think now they turn the clocks in November, but back then they used to turn the clocks forward back in November and October. So it was much, so I woke up, the room was pitch black, it was dark outside. And I said out loud, as I woke up, I said, geez, I feel like I just woke up from the dead. And the instant those words came out of my mouth, I had the overwhelming presence, intuitive insight. I don't, again, don't have the specific words to capture that. In fact, I had woken up from the dead and I did, you know, um, you know, it's married at the time. I put on my, my wife at the time, she's deceased now. May she rest in peace. Um, You know, I used to lie. Of course, I lie.

Benyi 24:39

Yeah. I mean, that's that's addicts. 101. You lie. Come on.

Luis 24:44

Yeah. Right. So I used to lie. I used to promise. I used to swear. I was through. I promise this time is different. I really mean it. I did. I was resigned. I was resigned. To my reality, this is what I am, you know, I did not come up, you know, but, you know, like feeling like, okay, I got this thing. I just, I just, like I said, it was an insight. And the next day, which I consider my sober date, um, October 24th, 1996, it was a Thursday, um, you know, I went to work and, um, I didn't even come home. I went straight to a meeting from job to, to a meeting, you know, I went from work directly to a meeting. And, um, and that's where my journey started. That's truly where my journey started. So, um, you asked me how I got here and how I got to the point where I'm in front of a room, maybe sharing my experience. Um, it's, you know, I earned my entry fee by just being broken in mind, body, and spirit.

Benyi 25:53

Oh, man, I have so many questions. Uh, thanks for, you know, telling you your story, Luis. Um, but, um, I want to circle back to what you said, uh, when people say, I decided to stop drinking. I, um, wanted to stop drinking. And you often make the distinction between wanting. and being willing to go to any length to get sober. Could you expand on that?

Luis 26:22

Um, I'm sure. So the, the first, the first basics foundation to that, um, which is what I embrace is the idea that lack of power is my dilemma. Yes. At the root, the root is the lack of power is my dilemma. And I find that to be. If that was one side of the coin the other side of the coin is there is one who has all power um the But if we focus on lack of power me Being my dilemma and we look at the real definition of the alcoholic or addict as described in our literature by definition the alcoholic is beyond human aid, um, and so therefore If that means that the ability for me to stop based on my own willpower or my decision or my desire, that if I'm, am an alcoholic of the hopeless variety as described in our book, Then I've no, I don't have that ability to re my reality is, is that I had the greatest desire to stop that I could muster every fiber of my being wanted, and I'll put that in quotation marks wanted to stop, but that desire or want to stop was not sufficient to bring about the needed change. Why? At a fundamental level, why? Because I was beyond human age. Same thing goes with any decision I would make. If I made a choice not to drink or drug that day, it was, even if I was successful in doing that for a day or whatever it would be, I was still obsessed with the thought of drinking a drug and because I was thinking then about how not to drink a drug. So the thought of the drink or the drug never left me and it would only be a matter of time where I would give into the thought and I would drink again because I had already lost the power of choice as to whether or not I would stop or not on my own. Why? Back to our fundamental premise. I was beyond human aid. Lack of power is my dilemma. Not lack of knowledge, not lack of desire, not lack of awareness of the consequences. All of those things. Now, how do I differentiate that from willingness? Yes. There is a big difference because a willingness to go to any length has nothing to do with my desire. Okay. Interesting. Right. Right? Because it's, it's, it's, it's a desperation, right? Our literature talks about, you know, the desperation of drowning men. Yeah, you want to survive. I get it. Nobody wants to die. But that desire to live is not sufficient. But a willingness to go to any length, that's, to me, there's a, there's a big distinction between that and a desire to stop. Because if I, if I rest my premise on the foundation that my desire to stop or my decision to stop, you know, you hear this all the time. I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. That's a common expression. As if, Being sick and tired was sufficient for me to overcome

Benyi 30:37

The

Luis 30:38

reality is I was sick and tired of being sick and tired easily a decade plus Before I got sober. Yeah, let's see Um If I, if I rest my premise, I'm building it on sand because then I, then, then what I am saying that in that point,

Benyi 30:59

my

Luis 31:01

recovery came about my, from my, from, from, from myself, from my own will. And now I've taken it back from me being beyond human aid to not being beyond human aid because I'm human. So now, now the alcoholic, we can't use that term. Let's use the other term. The hard drinker or heavy user who does stop because they want to stop, or they make a choice, or they have some crises or opportunity in life that presents themselves that gives them sufficient reason to stop. By definition, that person is not an alcoholic. Now, they're welcome. It's part of AA. Our traditions state their only requirement is a desire to stop drinking, right? That's AA. Yes. So, so they're welcome. There's no requirement that says you have to be an alcoholic to be a member of aa. Now, that sounds kind of Mm-Hmm, that sounds like a contradiction, but that's the reality. Yes. Right? Mm-Hmm. Um, in fact, and I, you know, when I point out to people that your desire to stop will get you a seat in aa, it won't get you to stop. There's a caveat to that. The caveat is that presuming, of course, that you're an alcoholic of the hopeless variety, presuming, of course, that you are one of those who is beyond human aid. And that leads to another point. That's why it's critically important for every newcomer that enters into the rooms to give themselves an opportunity to find out their own truth, because just because I was beyond human aid doesn't mean you're beyond human aid. Yeah. And you owe it to yourself.

Benyi 32:47

The

Luis 32:49

challenge is, is that like my own experience coming in, I thought I knew what I needed to know, because I knew that I could do this and I'll do that and I'll manage. And I'll bet, you know, I'm still in the driver's seat. So I think, right. And because why, mainly because I was ignorant of the nature of the illness. You see, I thought I was suffering from a moral issue. I thought my, my, the root of my problems was that, you know, I just wasn't man enough to do the right thing. Right. And I had, I had a character deficiency that prevented me from behaving in an upright, moral way. You see, the, the, the truth is the, nothing could be further than the truth. If, if you're one of us, if you're an addict behind, you know, Beyond human aid, then it's, yeah, I may have moral issues and character deficiencies galore, right? I have a mountain of them, but that is at the root is not why I can't stop drinking a drug. And I can't stop drinking a drug and because I'm suffering from my illness. Yes. So, so this is kind of a long walk around the block, but getting back to the original question. You know, how do, how do I make that distinction? You know, I think the book makes the distinction for us. If we look at the literature, it's, it's right there in black and white. The most powerful desire to stop drinking is absolutely no avail. Self knowledge is not a, not a, not a solution. We've lost the power of choice. For those of us who want to keep it green and remember the last run and some, you know, crazy idea that that will keep you sober because you never want to go back there again. And I know, I know I'm saying in a mocking tone only to make, to illustrate the point, really the reality is that we, you know, if you read our own literature, if you're one of us, that, you know, I cannot bring forward with sufficient force, the memory of the suffering and humiliation. I know you see. Right. I had, I share one experience. Um, go ahead. So I was, um, I was in the showers getting ready to go to work. And I was one of these people that, you know, I, I worked my whole life. And although I lost jobs here and there because of my addiction. I always managed to stay employed. And so I was getting ready to work now. It didn't mean I got any sleep. So I was in the shower and I started convulsing in the shower to the point where I was now on the bed of the shower, literally convulsing. And, um, I, I, I, you know, I, I did a foxhole prayer. You know, we all been there. Oh, dear God, please. Anything. Don't let me die in the shower. Yeah. I swear I'm through. Right that same day because my mo used to be that I'd go to work around 11 ish. I would page flocco And then I would meet flocco doing lunch hour at a predetermined location And then I would cop and then I would start using and that's what kept me going Because I would normally not sleep. And then that would start the run for the next 24 hours, because then about midday that day, I would be getting high. I would get high throughout the night. And then next thing you know, the sun would be up and I do this all over again. Well, here I was not days, not weeks later. I mean, I literally was shaking uncontrollably in the daggone shower. I thought I was going to die right then and there. Yeah. That same day. That same it was it was that days it was hours later. Not only did I page flocco get in my car Drive to the predetermined location Exchanged my the the monies for the goods. I was on my second or third blast Before I realized holy smoke was that it's just this morning. I swore I never was gonna do this again It had not even come to mind. I had completely forgotten That just that hours ago I thought I was going to die in my bathtub. That's so easy. So, you know, so I could choose all I want. I could desire all I want. I can, um, you know, I could try to keep it green and remember the last time we played a tape through for me, those things were doing, those were doomed to failure. Those, those, those, um, re well, I will call them relapse prevention techniques. We're doing to failure. Um, yeah, go ahead. Well, what I, what I, you know, when I, when I work with people and when I, You know, I have the privilege of sharing my experience in a big book experience meeting and we get to these critical chapters and there's a solution more about alcoholism, even in Bill's story. And of course, um, the doctor's opinion, I really try to drive these points home purposely to shake the ground under people's feet, because for all of us, just keeping it to myself, there's a sense of certainty because now I know, you see. You know, and I will convince myself that, you know, somehow I had something to do with my recovery. And, and it's easy to be persuaded that way, because of course our program of action has plenty of instructions in it. And then we interpret that, Oh, as long as I do these things, therefore I will remain sober. And there is a lot of truth to that. And I I'm splitting hairs. But I would say ultimately all of those things, quote unquote, these tools, all of those things, it's not a checklist. It is, those are tools that help us grow. In our relationship with the power that solves the problem. Yeah. It's the power that solves the problem. Those quote unquote things on the checklist or tools are to me, they're tools that we've all agreed on that allows us not only to get in touch with the power, but to grow in that relationship.

Benyi 39:18

Yeah, like, uh, oh man, you, you, you touch on so many topics right there and also like the way you expanded it, but to resume what you just said, like, you know, the way I understood it, it's not because we have some agency that we have control and understanding that we have no control is basically how our best way of staying sober.

Luis 39:46

Yes. Um, one pet way that I phrase it, I get back to lack of power is my dilemma. I think that's one of the great meditations in the book. Um, but to embrace that, to clothe myself. You know, in that, you see, um, and, and I'm not espousing any religion, but there's, there's something out of the New Testament, St. Paul writes, you know, where he talks about, um, my, my, my power is sufficient for you. Yeah. You see. It's, it's, it's, it's to embrace my imperfection, to embrace my lack of power that, you know, I think creates then the inverse where now we can become open, right, to be empowered, you know, I, I'm stripped down to nothing and then that allows me to be empowered. So it's a kind

Benyi 40:56

of leap of

Luis 40:57

faith, basically. Right. Yeah. Oh, it's very much elite. Uh, at least in my view, I think, um, when we get into we agnostics and, you know, I, I always say that the book, the steps are one thing, you know, it's one experience and this it's hard for us because we're linear, right. We have them listed one through 12. It's easy to think of them as 12 separate things. Like, you know, like a, like a loaf of bread that you slice, but it's really one experience. And a lot of this becomes. It's so interconnected and interwoven, um, that, but, but it, but in, and we, it's, and we, uh, we agnostics, first of all, we have, so if, if, if we could just say for the sake of this discussion, cause I don't know how much time we have, that lack of power is your dilemma. Let's take that as, the book is, if you read that chapter, it's very interesting because then you turn the page, right? And then it starts laying out all these beautiful promises that as soon as we can lay aside prejudice, we will begin to be, you know, sense, you know, power and direction. Um, you know, as if you can be willing to believe, you know, you know, you found that you have, that's enough to begin the journey. Right. Yeah. And that's summed up. It kind of repeats itself for a couple of paragraphs there. And, um, but in each of those paragraphs, there's a little dig. Yeah. I want to be specific. So what I mean, this gets, this is getting to your point of faith. So like, if you look on page 46, like it says, yeah, we have a NASA type of men have had these thoughts and experience that, you know, as soon as you're willing and so forth and so on, no, you're going to get results. But then it says what? Even though it was impossible for any of us any of us to fully define Fully define or comprehend that power right there. They're telling us We can't define this thing. In fact, we can't even comprehend it and when did you think about it just in a simplistic way? I'm fine. I'm a finite human being and then you have the infinite. Yes How am I as a finite being to understand comprehend or define once you define it? Once you think you've defined it because you can't. Yes. What you've done is you've put a limit around your concept of the power has now become limited by your own definition, which by definition that use the same word twice, you can see his notion or prejudice. Then what else does it say? Then further on. It says, um, the next paragraph says, you know, much to our relief, we discover we need not consider another's conception of God, right? And that's beautiful. Our own conception, our own conception, wonderful, man. You always want it to be on your own. There you go. You have it. Freedom. Your own conception. Your, what, what's it say next? However inadequate, by definition, my conception of a power greater than myself. There you go. Is inadequate by definition. I cannot fully define or comprehend that power Later on the very next paragraph they give us some more encouragement, but how do they end it? It's like a little dig It's a little thing right there. So we use our own conception. However, what limited it was? You see so so that means If all that's true if we take that as true Then that means I will never you know, I cannot sit down with a slide rule. Excuse me. I'm dating myself We don't use slide rules anymore, but I can't sit down and do calculus And figure out, and then come to a logical conclusion in terms of how, you know, how you can measure a straight line from points A to B. Okay. That power, right? And so there's always going to be the, I don't know.

Benyi 45:19

All right. That's a, that's amazing. So like, what then is a spiritual awakening? Okay. At the following of the steps, especially like, how do you know that you reach that spiritual awakening? If you cannot even put the definition

Luis 45:33

on the understanding of that power. Oh, that's a great question. Um, I mean, that's why

Benyi 45:42

you're here, man.

Luis 45:44

Well, I, I know, I know in the depth of my heart. I, I, yeah. Um. I, I, I think the evidence is that you, you start to live in that as described in our literature, the fourth dimension of existence. And I don't know, maybe somebody who's, if someone listens to this, maybe they can let us know what they think about it. I've always defined that fourth dimension as the dimension of time, meaning that I can live in the now. Yeah. Right. And later on, right. All of this is to mingle. You know, may you find there's one who has all power. May you find him now, right? You can only find them in the now. So let's just have to do a spiritual awakening. If I live in that dimension of time where I can actually literally live in the now that's I'm awakened, my spirit is awakened to the present. I'm no longer, I'm no longer subjugated to the fears and terror I have of the future. or the regret and resentment of the past, thereby missing my life as it goes forward. You see, because in we agnostics again, all interconnected, it says that we should regard ourselves as intelligent agents of this power, that creative power in the universe is on going. And the only way for us to be in communion with it, I'll use the word communion or union, is to be in the now, you see, because it's only accessible to us. Maybe there's another dimension for other beings. If there's other beings in the universe for us as humans, it can only be experienced in the now. And therefore we have to live in the now if we're to experience and to be creative. Agents of that power, meaning we're the tools of that nature, right? But I can't be a tool if I'm stuck in the past or fearful of the future. And my mind and my spirit and my soul are not grounded exactly where I am in the moment. And so that's, that's when I'm, I'm, I'm awakened. Because I can be abstinent of the drink or the drug and not be in the moment. Those are two different things, right?

Benyi 48:24

Oh, yeah, I totally agree with you and, um, not to cut you off, like, but like, if you could expand on that, how do you, you know, because, you know, in our, in our fellowship, like the, the time of sobriety is seen as like the only currency to judge somebody. Spiritual fitness. And like you said, it's not because, you know, abstinent of the drug or the drink that somebody is awakened. How do you explain that to somebody who is in a room and tell them like, yes, that guy might have 36 years of sobriety, but it's not necessarily spiritually fit. How do you explain that to somebody?

Luis 49:10

Well, there's a lot, there's some crude ways. One is there's a phrase, you know, how you live in, you know, how you live in. Okay. Yeah. Um, listen, I respect time. Yeah. Okay. We have, you know, there's a respect for time. You're right. In my view, time does not equate recovery. Um, if we, if we read in the preface, right, a, a member number three, recovered when, um, Our own literature says immediately, you see, if, if, if this has always been about me entering a relationship with a power greater than myself, and then growing in that relationship, not maintaining it, but growing in that relationship. Who is to say when or how long that power needs to act in the human heart?

Benyi 50:08

Nice.

Luis 50:09

Nice. There's, there's no boundary that we can say, well, God can only make you recover in six months. Really? I thought he either is or he isn't. I thought he was either everything or he was nothing. Yeah. If all things are possible, then all things are possible. Meaning recovery immediately. Yeah. So, so it is a function of your spiritual fitness, you know, I, I, I try to avoid the, the discussion about recovered versus recovering, but yeah, but I, I'll get into it a little bit here. Cause I think it illustrates,

Benyi 50:45

please do, please do.

Luis 50:46

Yeah. All right. So we have a threefold illness that we learn, right. Uh, mentally, physically, spiritually. Yes. Now the power comes removes the problem. The obsessive thought, the main problems in the mind, the obsessive thought is removed. I don't think of the drink or the drug. Therefore I don't ingest it. I don't ingest it. I don't go off to the races. I don't suffer physical craving, but all this is contingent on a very critical hinge, critical leg, my spiritual fitness. And how do we, how do we measure that? Well, we, we really don't measure that. My spiritual fitness. is a function of now. My spiritual fitness is a function of this breath because you and I having a wonderful conversation right now. Now in 10 minutes, not that I'm going to go downstairs and kick the dog. I'm not going to kick the dog. God, God forbid. But you see if we're spiritual and we're levitating and by the way, we I know I certainly don't do this perfectly I don't think anyone else does this perfectly. I don't want anyone to get the impression that somehow, you know, we start Demonstrating jedi mind powers or anything. I'm not going to be levitating anytime soon. I don't think So I let's get that clear that my humanity Involves all my imperfections as as a as part of god's nature You By definition, I am imperfect. That is, that is, that is just, uh, that's, that's, that's how it was created. So, so to get, to get that straight, but my spiritual fitness is a function of now, right? So yes, we have these special spiritual tools to help create some discipline, right? And 11 step instructions and the 10 step instructions, you know, how, how, how we, what did it, how we apply some that alcoholics need discipline. So we. Discipline ourselves. How I established in spiritual practices. When we wake up during the day to pause, how we review our day, right? These are the tools, right? But these are tools. If I get up and I have a great meditation and I have some prayers, I read something inspirational, and then I get in the car and I'm stuck in traffic and I'm giving the finger to everybody. Well, I might've been spiritually fit when I first got up, but I'm certainly not demonstrating spiritual fitness in the, in the moment. So. Um, that doesn't mean i'm necessarily going to go out and drink that afternoon because you know I gave somebody the finger in in traffic and I and i'm saying that as a euphemism. I I don't do that Yeah, uh, i'm just making a point. I don't want to think i'm one of these aggressive drivers But the point is is that you know that does that may not necessarily translate to oh i'm gonna get drunk But if like, like the program tells us, if my behavior continues to harm others and you know, we think of a harm as something that you do physically to somebody or, or I'm taking something away from somebody, um, but you know, or maybe some form of abuse, emotional abuse, whatever it may be. But to be a harmful person, not cosnate of the people around you to do even a simple thing like littering, you know, like, you know, you know, there's certain as we get sober, the road gets narrower and narrower, right? We start out on a broad highway and then on page 58, suddenly you're on a path. And so as you, as you travel, the road gets narrower. And so our behavior should be changing as we go because acceptable behavior that might've been, um, behavior that may have been acceptable early in recovery is no longer acceptable as I'm sure. So. So I don't want to give the, the, the, you know, tell how people could think, Oh, geez. Yeah. My, my boss peed me off today and I was really angry and now I'm going to get drunk. No, but what I'm saying is that's why we have all these tools to help us get back on track, get back to a spiritual foundation where we can continue to live our life to guide us, right? What does it say? Just that we, the steps are guides, right? That keep us on a path That, you know, um, that allow us to, to be part of the, the human, the human race.

Benyi 55:16

So if I understood it correctly, and I'm going to try to resume what you just said, the importance is not to not get angry or not to do some, it's like basically to be self aware of our actions. If we check with our own self and we are aware that, you know, like to use your analogy with the road. That the moment we flip the road, flip the finger, flip the road, sorry, flip the finger to that person while we're driving, when in the morning we did everything to stay spiritually fit, if we're aware of that moment and we try to recenter ourself, we maintain that spiritual fitness, right?

Luis 56:00

Right, but you also have to make every effort to change your behavior, right? If I if I keep on giving people the bird as I'm driving down the road or I keep on stealing or I'm going to cheat on my spouse, you know, if my behavior doesn't change then, you know, I could say all the prayers I want It's not being demonstrated in my actions. Yeah Yeah, so, uh, go ahead, you, you use the word awareness and, uh, I just wanted to kind of zero in on that a little bit. It is a key word in our temp step instructions. Um, sometimes people read right past it and it's a simple word says, watch, you know, watch for these things within ourselves. Right. And you know that that seems so benign what but watching is hard work because what that involves is being mindful of what we're doing and our attention and that takes practice yes it does and none of us does this perfectly and we all have lapses of this and so forth and there's a whole host of spiritual tools to men face fences make amends and to move forward but Um, it's the, the, you know, think about, you mentioned like, how do you know? And I talked about, you know, you asked me, how do I know, um, you know, I had the spiritual experience and I talked about living in the now, you know, I'm not moving from that point, but what we have to understand is as human beings that we're going to come up short, but it, this watching thing, you see, the reality is, is that there was a time where I lived strictly on instinct. I was no more, I was really not far removed from an animal. Um, and, and my behavior was from one extreme to the other, you know, I was emotionally unstable. I was, you know, physically unstable in terms of the way I, you know, conducted myself, and I was not even aware of how insane I was. Yeah. Now, the blessing is we've been given spiritual tools, we've been awakened, essentially, we've been awoken from the dead. And, and now, as we go through our human experience and we fail, and we have our failures, if I'm watching, at least I'm aware. I'm aware that maybe I was discourteous to you. I'm aware now, oh, you're gonna steal something? You really gonna try to take that? So there's this awareness that means that allows us to get back on track. So, um, that's again, being in the, now that's watching that takes discipline that doesn't happen overnight.

Benyi 58:50

Yeah, I agree with you. So like, um, question that, you know, might be a little bit, um, hard for you. So do you think. The 12 steps are enough to be spiritually fit, or we need to add other stuff, like, sorry, like we need to find something else within ourself because you said earlier, the steps are a guide, but are they enough to maintain our spiritual fitness?

Luis 59:20

Um, I would, I think, um, as I shoot from the hip here, I think the, the answer. Is the ultimate answer is no, uh, the, what will maintain your spiritual fitness, but what's key to your recovery is your relationship with the power of greater than yourself. Um, and, and, um, as we read our program, even our literature says, uh, the very end, I think it's on page 164, it talks about. God will disclose more to you and to us, so your real reliance must always be on him. You see, the steps are a wonderful spiritual tool. We need that as our foundation. Again, without the integrity of the program, the language, you and I wouldn't even be able to have to start this conversation. We'd all be talking in tongues and nobody would know what anybody the hell is saying, and it'd all be gibberish and you wouldn't attract anyone because if you think of a newcomer walking in and everybody's speaking a different language and nobody understands each other, you'd say, what the hell is this? This is crazy, right? So we have a, we have this foundation for communicating. That's critical. The tools are designed for living and I apply those tools in my life to the best of my ability, but ultimately my reliance is on him, right? On he who has all power. Um, and so to me, that transcends everything. Um, and that's the, you know, there's a tongue in cheek thing that I will say, and I hope I don't want to offend anybody that is that after saying all that, then you throw away the book. No, we, we don't throw away the book because if you tell a newcomer, throw away the book, they're really, but you know, there's, I think there's a, there's a Buddhist, um, you know, story about the monks crossing the river, right. And, you know, they, they, they make a raft. Right, and they crossed the river. And now they're going through the jungle and then, but, but one of the monks is still carrying the raft and he's complaining, you know, they're going through the jungle, the forest, and the ground is, you know, difficult walking, and they're going uphill, and, you know, the guy's getting agitated, he's carrying this raft with him. And, you know, the other month says, I don't, you know, we crossed the river miles ago, you know, we've already passed that river, we're not going to need it. You know? So, I mean, you know, I'm not trying to tell anyone to throw away the book, but I'm trying to say is that, um, it's a tool that points to the answer. Let's we, we can be, we could love our program. You know, I do, uh, it has wrought miracles, you know, not only in my life, but in so many lives that I've been privileged to walk along with, but, but that it's not, but it's, it's the creative power in the universe that brings the miracle about. We have been so blessed to find a pathway to get in touch with that power and then to grow. I would never tell anybody to throw away the book per se, because it's critical for me to carry this message. I mentioned this at the start, how vital it is to carry the message and how all of the people that I've had the privilege of working with have become my true teachers, because They've helped me grow. And how would I have that opportunity to do that, to have that experience? If I didn't have the book as the foundation of our communication and to maintain the integrity of the message that has helped so many at this point, I would say millions of people to a

Benyi 1:03:11

new way of life. Yeah, it's beautiful. He said, and I really appreciate you being sincere because like what you just might like upset some people like that. You know, the steps might not be enough that like it's actually a higher power, but like To circle back to, to something that you said earlier, like, you know, how these steps are the foundation of our recovery, what, what happened in the fellowships, why are people, you know, so geared toward hanging around the fellowship and not wanting to start the step, the true work, like basically what, you know, based on what you are saying, you know, People are there hanging out, you know, we speaking all different language, but very few, unfortunately, want to sit down and learn this new language, you know, this new foundation, like there is the proof is most big books meeting as much smaller than like a regular meeting. What do you think is that now?

Luis 1:04:23

All right, well, I'm going to sidestep your question. Okay. So,

Benyi 1:04:26

Um,

Luis 1:04:29

because it's, it's not my place to comment on the culture of the 12 step fellowships. And I'll, I'll expand on that point. Okay. Let's start out when I walked in the rooms, when I walked in the rooms, I didn't, I didn't take a survey. Oh, you're a big book guy. Oh, you're a meeting maker. Oh, you have the coffee pot. I was, I was, I was just so grateful that it was a place that I was welcomed to. She All of us together, all of us are the living legacy of our fellowship. It's a human organization. Yeah. We're not going to conform to a single, I'll call it individual vision. Um, now what, what motivates human being one person to the next? It's not for anyone. I, I, I don't have that vision. Okay. Um, there, there are, they, they could be some things that might be one. One thing is, is that at least from my experience, I walked in, I was ignorant of the nature of my, of the illness. Now I mentioned right off the bat that, uh, for all I know, people were carrying the message. I didn't hear it. I didn't hear it. Not because they weren't saying it. I was hearing it cause I was stuck in who I stuck in me. Um, But but but but no doubt I was ignorant about the nature of illness and that's why I encourage everyone to find out their own truth Um, but but so so how do I build on that concept? so the fact that Ignorance abounds and you know as addicts and alcoholics. I know I know how to fit in Let me tell you you we all can find a spot, right? You could you can drop ship me in the middle of you know middle america somewhere And I'm going to find a spot and I'm going to blend in. So if I dropped somebody, uh, drops in the middle of a 12 step fellowship, right out of it, Rehab, whether it be my first rehab or 100th rehab, probably worse for the guy with a hundred because now he knows he thinks he knows. Yeah. Right. But you come in and what do we do? You know, everybody raises their hand. I'm an alcoholic. I'm an addict. I'm Joe, uh, John Doe. I'm an alcoholic. You see the coffee you see the cookies Maybe there's a pretty girl you can sit next to and i'm gonna fit right in and if it means i'm gonna say My name is luis and i'm an alcoholic. That's what i'm gonna say because i'm gonna fit in I'm gonna find a way to fit in now I have no idea what this says to be say an alcoholic, but everybody else says an alcoholic So I just repeat what I hear because that's what the that's what we're saying So for those of us who've had the experience we have the responsibility Responsibility emphasize, okay To carry what it says in this message to carry the message That's my responsibility And at every opportunity I will carry this message in a way I hope that people can connect to that people would be attracted to Rather than you must do this, right? um, you see Lack of power is still my dilemma. I am not in the results business. My responsibility is to carry the message. Yeah. Best is my ability. Best is God allows me to. Yeah. Um. The result of that is out of my hands.

Benyi 1:08:32

Mm hmm.

Luis 1:08:33

You see, whether the message is received, whether someone gets encouraged or inspired or at least inquisitive enough to say, um, Hey, what do you mean by that? You see, I talked about meeting my sponsor, you know, you know, what made me go up to him after the meeting, after he shared, he had, he was, he was a speaker, he introduced himself and he says, um, uh, he says, I'm Eric. His name was Eric. And. I'm a recovered alcoholic and recovered now that maybe people had said that billion times and I never heard it, but that's the first time I have anybody said recovered. So I went to him after the meeting. Hey, when you say recovered, you know, what do you mean by that? You mean recovering? You're slowly recovering. No, so, so I say, well, how do you, what do you mean by that? And that's how the conversation started that led to us doing the work together. So, he said something that struck me, that inspired me to, now I don't remember anything that he shared about his story, whether I identified with it or anything like that, but once he said recovered, just when he introduced himself, I, in my, in my soul, I heard something different than I, I, at least, I thought I'd never heard before. At least I was the cosmetic hearing it before. So, you know, our responsibility is to carry the message. We're not in the results business. I will continue to carry the message as long as God gives me breath in my lungs to do so. Um, And, um, and then how everybody journeys, because we all have to journey, our own journeys are unique and, and they're sacred at that person that may be, who may be not ready to hear the message right then and there, you know, there may be another time when he hears the message, you see, we don't know. And so the, the culture of AA or the 12 step fellowship. I think it's not my, it's not my say to be concerned vis a vis, you know, all these, you know, um, these people, they, you know, they, they'd rather go to the beginners, meaning they're at, you know, they want to talk about their day or their promise or their goldfish died. And I'm making fun. I mean, tongue in cheek. That's not for me to say, because I know when I walked in, you know, you could have been talking about your goldfish dying and I would have been, I, you know, I was just grateful that I was somewhere.

Benyi 1:10:57

Yeah. I totally understand that. And, um, that's, that's, that's very interesting because when you talk about, you know, going to our sponsor, Um, I'm going to be, um, you know, tell you basically how I see you, how you, you know, I'm you being perceived by me. I believe in people's aura and energy. And I. When you walk in the room and you talk about this program, you have a, when they say it's a program of attraction or promotion, you definitely have an attractive aura, like I never seen you like sponsor hunting, like, you know, like people gravitate normally toward you because, you know, I believe that they can feel that you spiritually fit, right? That you like, You're leaving your program that you are free. And my question now is for somebody who completed the steps, who had that spiritual awakening, what are the next steps in order to sponsor somebody? Because my concern is I would like to sponsor, you know, eventually sponsor, but I don't want to hurt. I don't, sorry for the lack of better word, but I don't want to, you know, Be self seeking in wanting to help somebody else at all costs, you know, because now the step after is to spread the message. But, um, yeah, how do you, how do you, uh, get the right attitude when you want to sponsor somebody?

Luis 1:12:41

All right. I have a, I have, um, an answer for you. It comes from our program. Uh huh. Um, I know you use the word hunting. Yeah, um, you know, first of all, I don't, I never use the term, I'm going to get to the point. I never use the term sponsor. I, I always use the term working with others. Okay. And, and what I emphasize to people that I've worked with is that we are working together. See, you and I right now and anybody listening, Uh huh. We're equally powerless in this moment. Yes. You see. Okay. So I don't, you know, this is not Amway. Okay. I don't sell you a box of soap and then you sell to somebody else, a box of soap. And then, you know, like everybody's kicking up royalties to me. No, no, no, no. We are equally powerless. So I'm just as powerless today as I was before I came into these rooms. In that respect, nothing's changed. And my program, the program tells us what? That. Strenuous work with another alcoholic is vital to permanent recovery. Vital. When we read Vision for You and you hear the story of Bill and Bob, They, they, when, when Bob, when, when the, when Bob gets the light bulb and he has that moment, right? What are him and Bill Wills, they call the hospital and explain, and they talk to the nurse and what did they do? They explain their need. See, they needed to work with another alcoholic, not because they were altruistic and they want to do the mankind, do good for mankind. Yes. That's a by product. But at the core of the experience, I need it for my recovery, just like I need to work a four step, just like I need to do, uh, you know, I need to watch during the day, just like I have to do a daily inventory at the end of the day. You know, these are things that are vital to my recovery and what, uh, what works when all other measures fail and all of the measures fail, all of the measures mean. You know, praying, going to meetings, do it, you know, meditating, levitating 10 feet above the ground, all of those other things, all. You know, working with others when all other measures fail, work with another alcoholic. You see, that is vital. What does it tell? If I don't, if I fail to perfect and enlarge my spiritual life through what? Through self sacrifice and work for others, I will not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. I'm quoting our literature for a reason. Because that gives me what a sense of urgency. I still have the desperation of a drowning man See I need that spot. I need that person to work with More than he needs me so Hunting. I know you use that term and it's got a negative negative connotation But you have to understand if you've just completed your steps If you're going to grow and continue in this experience, you need to work with another alcoholic. There's just no other way around it and so You need you. You see, you know, you see this all the time. Here's a commentary.

Benyi 1:16:09

Yes, go ahead.

Luis 1:16:11

John Doe just got out of rehab, shows up at the meeting. Everybody claps. Hooray. He gets the hug. He gets the white chip. Oh, everybody loves him. We start passing the meeting list around and everybody signs their name and gives them their phone number. And now the meetings over. He's got a freaking thing, a book, a meeting list and a hundred phone numbers that what he will never call. Yeah. See what you do. What I was taught, what was done with me is you go up to John Doe first day, introduce yourself and ask him if you can have his phone number. Mm-Hmm. And you call him and share your experience, strength, and hope. And then offer him a solution if he cares to have it. And why not? Because you're hunting brother. Mm-Hmm. Because you need that guy more than he needs you. And even if you doesn't, even if he doesn't work with you. Even if you start the work and he bought, you have made the effort, you've been responsible in carrying the message, you're doing your part, you see. And so I would encourage you, you're not collect, it's not like you're collecting trophy wives for those of us who are in my age group will understand what I mean. Okay. Okay. This is not a collection of books that you're going to show, come to my library, look at my collection of rare books. No, this is something that you need to do for your own recovery. And so. Yeah, go hunt them down. You don't have to be browbeating them. You don't have to like, you know, chain yourself to their, to their, to, to their car, but that guy who maybe you hear somebody share, you know, who's back, you know, one day back again, desperate. Who's bewildered who has if he doesn't understand he doesn't have a clue why he keeps on using because he wants to stop after all He knows he's an alcoholic after all he chose not to do it anymore after all and yet here he is One day back again. Well, maybe What needs to happen is, you know, and I'll put you in the story. Fannie needs to go to that guy after the meeting and say, listen, let me get your number. I have, you know, there's a solution to your problem. You never have to suffer again. I was just as hopeless and desperate as you. And there is a way out. Can I call you tomorrow? What's a good time to call you tomorrow? We could talk about it.

Benyi 1:18:52

Oh, man, that's beautifully said, um, bro, no, man, I'm so happy to have you as a guest and like, you know, like we're reaching the end of this interview. It's almost an hour and a half. So like, yeah. Uh, so, yeah, I'm going to give you the last word and, you know, you can ask me a question or you can, you know, ideally, I don't know. Um, what would you say to like the newcomers in a room? Like end it like you, you will basically, what would you like to say last?

Luis 1:19:21

Oh, well, first off, thank you for having me an hour and a half. My goodness. Um, take a, take a, take a lunch break while you're listening, I guess. Um, but I would say to anyone who's coming in desperate need of a way out, uh, to, to know that there is a solution and that it's, you know, it's not, we're, we've all been there. It's not just the special ones that get it. Quote unquote. We are all. Equally powerless and God's love for us is infinite, and he loves us infinitely, which means what? He loves us all equally, and there is a solution. You never, ever have to suffer again, not just from the drink or the drug, but from even the thought of the dick of the drug. That there's real freedom to be found here in our fellowship and our program. Um, and you never have to suffer again. All right. Thank

Benyi 1:20:28

you very much, Luis. Um, this was amazing and I will see you guys for the conclusion. Bye. There you have it, folks. What a fantastic episode. Um, I just feel like I had a conversation with Yoda right now. Uh, speaking of Jedi, uh, force and mind tricks. Uh, yeah, like, thank you. Thank you very much to Luis for being a wonderful guest in this episode. Uh, an hour, 20 minutes about, you know, and like he said, like, how we recommend that you take a lunch break. There's so, so much to impact, to unpack from that interview and, uh, what a great way to get back on, uh, you know, uh, on tracks with Stairway to Redemption and give you like a episode that's twice as long. Um, yeah, guys, uh, as always, uh, supporters on social media and, um, uh, Patreon, and I will see you guys in two weeks, hopefully. Bye.