Episode 42: Sober Dating

Benyi: 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 days clean and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know. Will I ever drink again? I do not know. This is how Stairway to Redemption was born. It is my search for answer in a real time process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what is going to work for you. It is our journey together. All right. All right. Welcome back to another episode of Stairway to Redemption. Today, we have a very famous guest in our book. She is a prominent voice in the Sorber Curious Community. She has been dubbed the Sorber Sexpert. She has been featured on countless podcasts and shows. She recently released her book called Dry Humping, a Guide to Dating. Relating and hooking up without the booze I give you guys, Tony, Laura, how are you doing, Tony?

Tawny: 1:42

Hello, my love. It's so good to see you

Benyi: 1:44

again. Always a pleasure. Uh, so yeah, thank you for accepting, um, uh, to do this, uh, podcast and, uh, let's start right away then. Um, what's your state of the mind address? Congrats, by the way, on, uh, getting married recently. I think it was last week or the week before. Yes. So yes. Yeah. Tell us, uh, what does it feel like? How are you doing lately?

Tawny: 2:10

You know, I'm, I'm okay. There's it's, it's been really just probably the craziest two months of my life just with getting engaged, book launch, and then getting married. All within like two months. Um, I knew the book launch was coming, of course, but I was totally shocked, like totally surprised to get engaged. Um, and we just did like a quick courthouse wedding, which was perfect for us. Um, and now, you know, the book's been out for almost two months. And so I'm in this Weird, almost like burnout, exhaustion, uh, almost like a publishing postpartum feeling of like this thing I've been working on for years. Um, is out and there's not really anything else I can do about it other than promote it. So it's this weird feeling.

Benyi: 3:08

Oh, I see. How's the promotion going on, by the way? Do you have to like attend like a lot of events and stuff? Like you have a publicist you told me, right?

Tawny: 3:18

Well, yeah, the book has a publicist. So yeah, she, she helps out a lot. Um, and just as a journalist, I have a lot of contacts, so, you know, getting, asking my friends if they want to help promote the book, go on their podcasts, and... Um, and I'm going on my book tour in a couple weeks.

Benyi: 3:38

Oh, okay. That's amazing. So, like, it's a book tour around the country, I guess, right? Like, uh, several cities?

Tawny: 3:44

Yeah, we're starting with just two cities, and then we'll probably do more, um, next year, but... We're going to do L. A. and D. C. and then a lot of, um, local New York City

Benyi: 3:55

events. Oh, okay. Yeah, your events are fun, by the way. The book launch, I really had fun there. Like, it was, it was, it was dope. Like, uh, yeah. You know, I wish you, uh What was fun

Tawny: 4:06

about it? That's good to hear. What was fun? Uh,

Benyi: 4:09

first of all, when I heard the place, like, Contact Sport, I thought it was like, uh, You know, me being, um, aficionado of like contact sports, actually, like, you know, martial arts and kickboxing, I thought, I thought it was weird. Right. And then when I got in there, I was like, Oh, this is a sex shop. Yeah. But like, it's, it's, it's disguised as, you know, you have like rugby helmets, football, like. Pads and that kind of stuff. And I was like, oh, this is nice. This is classy. I like, I definitely like the venue. I like that. Uh, Nick was at the bar with our mutual friend, uh, Sam. That's awesome. With Sam. Yeah. Yeah. Your dad was there. Oh man. Like that many that he's so proud of you like. That was when he asked the question, it was, it was great. Like,

Tawny: 4:56

yeah, yeah, he, he's great. He's great. My dad's also in recovery. So that, you know, that's a language that we both speak and having him there meant so much to me.

Benyi: 5:07

Overall, it was a great event and, uh, you dropped the cake.

Tawny: 5:13

I did. It was the cake. So there's this like, you know, unofficial tradition where a lot of authors will get a cake that. Is either shaped like they're something from their book cover, or it's just like the image of their book cover. Um, so I got a big old cake with my book cover on it and most of it was eaten, thankfully, by the time I dropped it at the end of the night, but yeah, it

Benyi: 5:41

happens. It happens. Let's say like it was a good luck, uh, good luck thing, right? Like a good

Tawny: 5:50

omen. Exactly. I like that. That's a good reframe.

Benyi: 5:53

Yeah. Um, all right. So like, you know, for on this podcast, for people who are in recovery, I always start with, um, you know, if you can tell us our, your story, um, and you. You know, for more how you ended up in recovery to, um, how you ended up writing a book, go ahead.

Tawny: 6:13

Yeah. So, you know, I, I come from just, I was a party girl, a bartender lived that life for years. Um, and then this was, I grew up in Texas. I moved to New York in, um, 2015 when I was 29, um, to pursue writing. And just getting out of New York, uh, getting out of Texas, getting out of the bar scene, getting out of just what was comfortable, you know, was really shook me up, um, in a good way. And when I moved to New York, I had no idea that, that I would be getting sober in a couple months. That was not the plan. I just came here to pursue writing. Um, but shortly after I moved here, I began to reevaluate my relationship with alcohol. And, um, you know, my, I didn't have one of those stereotypical rock bottom moments, uh, that you see on TV. Um, but you could also argue that I was living in a rock bottom moment. You know, back in Texas, I was drunk driving. I was, I was living a very reckless life, um, hooking up with people that did not care about me and I didn't really care about them. Um, and. Just I was not taking care of myself, you know, um, so, you know, when I, I was my very last drink, I was sitting at finnelly's pub in Soho and I had, I was just drinking some beers and talking about how I don't have enough time to write, um, you know, with some friends. We were all talking about how we don't have enough time to do whatever it is. We came to New York to do, um, And then something just clicked when I left the pub, I realized, wow, I just spent four hours in a bar talking about how I don't have time to write, you know, maybe there's a connection there. Um, and the next day I woke up and I was just like, I'm not going to drink for a day for then that turned into a week and then two weeks. And then, um, my 30th birthday was coming up and I decided to start a blog where I documented my sober journey. Um, I was just going to give up a year, give up alcohol for one year and blog about it. Um, and that's, so that's what I did. And I, you know, I didn't go the traditional AA route. Um, I yoga writing therapy. Those were, and finding like the online sober community were really big parts of my record are, were, and are really big parts of my recovery. Um, and, and, you know, and, you know, the second part of your question, writing a book, you know, when I first quit drinking, I had no idea how to date, let alone hook up or communicate effectively in a relationship without alcohol. Um, so this really is the book that I needed when I was newly sober.

Benyi: 9:19

I really like that, you know, that answer that's, uh, that's really brave of you to write a book. And also, uh, I really like the structure of the book. Uh, it's divided in three parts. The first part is. Try dating. The second part is sober sex, which is the saucy part. You know, you got me Fascinating. I like, yeah. Like, uh, oh, quick question. How do you feel about that, uh, nickname the sober sex expert? Do you like? Um, uh, what does it, how do you feel when people, because I noticed like a lot of people introduced you that way. Like, uh, how do you feel

Tawny: 9:56

about it? It's interesting. Um, there's this level of imposter syndrome that I had, uh, cause I was like, who am I to be an expert on anything, you know, like I, I, I think someone who's an expert on something like sobriety, you know, mental health, like they need to be a mental health professional or, you know, they need to have some credentials. Um, and I don't, you know, I'm just, I'm just a person. Um, and. You know, then I, I, I talked about that feeling of imposter syndrome and some friends helped me realize, you know, there's different levels of expertise. There's, you know, the academic and clinical expertise that you get from an education and being in the field. Um, but you also get this, let this, I have, you know, like pers I have a personal experience as a drunk dater and as a sober dater. Um, so people and people connect with that personal experience. And I have years of journalistic research that got that went into this book. Um, you know, just studying the intersection of sobriety and alcohol with sex, dating and relationships. I've been studying that pretty much since I quit drinking. So, um, Real, I really had to get present with what I'm an expert on, you know, and it's research, it's the research

Benyi: 11:24

I've done. No, yeah, definitely. Uh, when you, I read the book, I was surprised by how many, like, actually academic expert who, you know, from a psychologist to, um, I mean, trauma experts to, uh, I mean, yeah, uh, now I'm blinking a little bit, but there are definitely, you're definitely backing up any claim with. Um, with like scientific data, and I really appreciate about it. You know, it's not, it's, it's well balanced between personal experience and actually, uh, scientific data. So, you know, it's not like a scientific book that will be heavy on the technicality of like serotonin and dopamine and like, because I mean. Those are great, but I don't want to downplay it, but any expert can call, yeah, the serotonin, the dopamine at the level, yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not that interesting, like, you know, like the dynamic of people relation and like, you know. Uh, that's definitely more interesting for me, at least in my opinion. But, uh, like I said, uh, your book is divided in three parts. Uh, try hump, try dating, try humping is the title. Try dating the first part. Sober sex is the second part. And untrunk love is the last part, which is like sober. Um, being sober in relationship, um, let's start with the first part, uh, you mentioned the importance of dating yourself, knowing yourself, that's actually the first very chapter, you know, um, and knowing yourself, but I notice. I mean, it's no secret that we are social creatures and, uh, some of us humans are unfortunately ready to compromise who they are in their core in order to belong. How does one date themselves and also doesn't, how to say, doesn't feel, doesn't fall to the peer pressure of wanting to belong. Yeah.

Tawny: 13:36

Um, it's, I mean, dating yourself doesn't necessarily mean being alone, you know, like a big, as you know, you've read the book, a big part of dating yourself is like spending time with people who care about you, spend time with your friends, spend time with your family, spend time at the gym. So, you know, spend time at museums, like do, do these things. That fill you creatively, intellectually, socially, doing all of these things will help you develop what, you know, what I call intrinsic courage. So you no longer have to rely on liquid courage when you're on a date, when you're trying to feel more confident in the bedroom or trying to have a conversation with, with your partner. You know, and the, the whole idea of dating yourself is, you know, it's, it's not a new concept. You know, every, any dating book will tell you the, you know, we'll tell you, you can't find love unless you fall in love with yourself, like it's a cliche. It's a cliche for a reason. It's, it's true. Like you, it's true. You know, I just, I, I call it dating yourself because I think that's maybe more of an approachable way to, to look at it. Yeah. Where you deserve to date yourself. You deserve to like light the candles and take yourself out to a nice dinner or go to a nice restaurant, nice restaurant with a friend. Like you don't have, we, we reserve these things for when we're in romantic relationships and you don't have to, you know, you can treat yourself. You can just really spend time with the people who love you and care about you. Um, You know, for me, a big part of dating myself was taking classes and studying and, um, that I found that like taking writing classes, studying Spanish helped me develop that real confidence that I'm talking about, you know, because I am genuinely, I'm learning and learning new things, becoming a smarter person just helps me feel more confident. So I found myself more confident on dates. Because I was filling my own cup first, you know?

Benyi: 15:49

Yeah, um, I totally get it, you know? Uh, I like the fact that you said, um, it doesn't have to be, uh, you don't have to be alone to date yourself. I guess when I asked the question, I was a little bit thinking about myself because I don't know if you're familiar with the attachment style, like, you know, anxious. Yeah. So me, so just for the audience, the different attachments, I'm not, it. Attachment style are like style of attachment in relationships. And you have the anxious type who are the codependent, the avoidant who are like, you know, people who are like self sufficient, don't really talk about emotion, disorganized, which is. Mix of both and the secure secure one who are like the well balanced one that what, you know, everybody should aspire to be, I guess, me being from, you know, more of the avoidant side, I, I, um, I guess I. Kind of projected a little bit saying, but like, you know, I like being on my own and, uh, you know, I, I like to say that a lot, but I don't like people. I like individuals. Like, so they're like some group activities that I'm not very comfortable with, but like, uh, what you said. Definitely makes sense. Like to date yourself. I don't have to be alone. You know, I'm comfortable alone, maybe too comfortable alone, but we're going to get back to to it to later in the in the third part of your book. I have a question for that. But, but, um, I wanted to say the once you comfortable, you know, let's say. Dating yourself or, um, you talk about trauma bonding, making sure that you don't bond to somebody because you went to the same trenches of life, or you both, you know, recovery addict or recovery alcoholic. How do you tell if you genuinely liking a person for, for who they are, or you are trauma bonding?

Tawny: 17:56

Such a good question. You know, and, and the reason that I bring that up in my book is because I talk about how I met. My now husband in an AA meeting. Yeah. No, I, I didn't, I didn't go to a lot of AA meetings, but the one, the one I went to, I, I, I found my person. Um, but you know, I bring trauma bond into that conversation because. A support group is really not an ideal way to meet someone. Um, because you, you go to a support group to find community safety, a way to be seen, find like minded people. It's a safe space to go where you can talk about all the stuff outside that is really difficult to deal with. And when you, when you. When you date someone who is in that safe space, it can really get messy. So even though I met my partner in an, in a support group, I, I really don't recommend it. Um, you know, the reason it worked for Nick and I is because he had. We each had three years of recovery before we met, you know, um, so we had already worked through a great deal of why we were self medicating with alcohol. Um, and we still are, as you know, that journey never really ends. You keep learning, but. Um, so I would, I share all that to answer your question with, you know, you, you need to work on your shit before you, before you date or hook up with someone. So if you haven't really worked on yourself and when I say work on yourself, I mean, address addressing the co occurring disorder that is usually with substance abuse. You know, there's usually a co occurring mental health. disorder going on. For me, it was anxiety, depression, PTSD, all this other stuff. Um, I worked on that. I addressed that. So I was not bringing that into new relationships. Yes. Um, and so that, that's the big difference when, you know, meet if you're in rehab, you know, you, you meet someone in rehab and you each have 15 days. That's a little dangerous. Yes. You know, um, it's a lot dangerous, I would say. So, um, it's, it's, it's so difficult to really define trauma bonding or even give like a recommended timeline because we're all on our own timelines. Um, Really, you know, if you're ready to date or not, you know, whether you and the whether you can admit it or not is another story. Um, but it's, if you haven't worked on yourself at all, you know, again, this is why I talk start with dating yourself. If you haven't worked on yourself at all. You are potentially at risk for forming a trauma bond.

Benyi: 20:59

Yeah, I definitely agree with you if the working on yourself part that totally makes sense. Um, a follow up question on that, you know, if. If you happen to be an empath and empathize a lot with people's emotions, you know, you're sucking it as a sponge, which I think I'm a bit of, it's hard, at least for me to sometimes discern what my true Thank Emotional intentions are, I'm like, you know, so it can lead to that trauma bonding. I've been victim of trauma bonding before, you know, like, uh, no big deal, but like, I don't want also to be like, Oh shit, a woman, kick her. Yeah. Don't talk to her. Ah, no, I don't want her, you know, like that's, that's not sustainable. So. What would you say for somebody who like really take, um, people's other emotion who sucks it up, you know, who is an empath? What would be your approach?

Tawny: 22:02

I mean, I would just say you need to have like a, I'm picturing like a full body condom that protects you. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you really. What if you're an empath or, you know, just, even if you're just a decent person who can listen to other people and empathize with them, you do, you have to be discerning, like you, you cannot take on someone else's shit, like you just can't, and if you do, it's dangerous and it's, it could be unhealthy. Um, that's why I'm thinking of like, I'm visualizing a full body condom where you're just like. Yeah, you look, you look forward, you just keep going forward. Like you can be there for someone and you can listen. Um, if they ask for help, you can, you know, maybe give them a couple of resources, but. Um for me Being being empathetic also led to me being severely codependent Yeah, so I think it's a little it's a bit of a dangerous game um I'm still actively working on my codependency every single day um And you know if you're listening and you don't know what codependency means it's for me It shows up as like trying to solve other people's problems for them Um Instead of listening, I, or like, I'll listen to someone, listen to someone, but instead of offering support or just emotional support, I have like a 10, I'll offer like a 10 page action item list of like, do this, do this, do this. Um, so, you know, for me, it's a little bit of, of, uh, when I hear empathy, my mind goes to codependency, but like a true empath really does take on. The pain of someone else and like, I don't know, I don't, I don't, I don't know. You just got, you got to wear the condom.

Benyi: 24:06

I know the emotional condom, like to keep, that's too funny. Oh man. Um, let's move on. So what are healthy ways to, to plan sober activities, uh, you know, while avoiding alcohol and drugs like, um. You know, um, there's that list that came out in social media recently of places, I don't know if you're aware of it, places like there are bad first dates and even coffee shops wearing it and shit. Oh man, I, so what's your go to for like a sober date?

Tawny: 24:44

Yeah, this is, this is a great question. There's actually, as you know, there's a whole chapter in my book about sober date ideas. It's full of sober date ideas. Um, And it's divided into where you are in your relationship. So if you're newly sober or I'm sorry, if you're like newly dating, you know, like you're going on like the first, first, second or third date, here's a, here's a bunch of ideas. Then if you're, you know, you met, you met someone and it's going really well and you're a little more comfortable, here's some ideas. And then, um, You've been with someone for 10 years, and you're committed. How do you how do you keep things interesting? You know, there's that list too. But I you know, my answer is actually the way that you asked the question you asked about sober activities. It's my answer is activities, you know, drinking is not an activity. Going to the bar and having a drink is not an activity going to the coffee shop is not an activity. So I would include I would recommend anything. That's an experience. So go to the zoo, go to the botanical garden, go to a museum. Um, Go to go experience, you know live theater. Um, because It takes for many reasons. It takes the pressure off of the date dating's awkward Like let's just be real dating is fucking awkward. Um, so And it's even more awkward when you're just staring at each other over your lattes. Um, so the reason that I give all these movements based dates are, uh, it really is to just to get your body moving, moving your body, you're going to get rid of some of those anxious jitters like that's just gonna. Help you moving around can help. Um, but also you're observing something external. You're observing something outside of yourself and the person you're getting to know. So for example, like you're at a museum, you see a beautiful piece of artwork. You talk about this beautiful piece of artwork with this person that you're interested in. That gives you something to talk about. That's about the present moment. You're not talking about where you grew up or what brought you to wherever you live now or what you do for a living. You're sharing, you're really present with that person. And I mean, it's, you know, everyone knows like the perfect antidote to anxiety is, is being present. So, um, finding these activities, go bowling, play golf, just, just, just go do something. That's my recommendation.

Benyi: 27:24

What about kickboxing, taking your date to a kickboxing class? I'm talking for myself right now. Yeah. Okay, cool. I'm going to do that.

Tawny: 27:32

Sorry. That date is I, I, I, uh, I endorse that date, Benny.

Benyi: 27:37

Okay. All right, cool. You heard it here. Um, oh yes. I asked you that question at, um, at your book release party. Um, when is the right time to disclose to a potential partner that you are sober or sober curious?

Tawny: 27:54

Yeah, that's a that's a good question. And a tough question. Um, which is also a chapter in the book because I want to meet readers where they are, um, acknowledging that being sober curious is different from being in recovery. You know, taking it's different disclosing a drive that you're doing a dry month is very different than disclosing that You, you went to an inpatient treatment facility and you're six months sober, you know, these are very different scenarios and there's a lot of gray area in between. So, you know, in the book, I really do do my best to meet the reader with wherever they are. On their sober or sober curious journey, but you know, ultimately the best for me, I found it to be the most efficient to just be up front on whether it's on your dating profile or when you're picking, figuring out what you want to do for the actual date, you can make it clear that you just, you don't want an alcohol based date, um, or you could just suggest something that is not. A drinking date. Don't go to don't suggest a restaurant or a bar. Um, it's really up to you when you feel comfortable sharing something like that. Um, like I said, sharing that you're doing a dry month is not going to be as emotionally taxing as sharing that you just got out of rehab. So you really have to figure out what feels right for you.

Benyi: 29:28

Okay. That's, uh, that's definitely, you know, you said about, you even did elaborate more this time on, uh, on that. And I really like the fact that you are trying to meet your readers where they are, because some people might not be comfortable yet with sharing, you know, because it's a very personal journey. I guess you and I, since we talk publicly about it, we feel differently about it. Um, In the same, in the same vein, same, uh, style of questions, how, um, how do you determine if that potential partner is genuinely accepting your sobriety or pretending to be?

Tawny: 30:08

Yeah, good. I love that. Um, I give some sample conversations in the book of like how to disclose. Whether you're sober, sober, curious, and also some, some, maybe some possible red flags to look out for. Um, but I will say anyone who is supportive of, You're not drinking, um, which is like, it's so silly to have to even say that, right? Like, we should all be supportive of wherever people are on the journey. Um, but unfortunately, that's just not how it is. So, um, let's see. Ask the, ask the question again.

Benyi: 30:54

So how would you determine or find out if a potential partner is really accepting of your sobriety or they're pretending

Tawny: 31:01

to be? Or if they're pretending. Yeah. Yeah. So if someone is not accepting, they... They might call you out. They might, um. They might tempt you with alcohol. They might be like, are you sure you can't just have one? Um, they just, they all, at the end of the day, they're not respecting you. Right. Um, but someone who, someone who is supportive, um, will, you know, they'll ask if it's okay to ask you questions about your sobriety, um, they'll make sure that, uh, if they're picking the date, they'll make sure that they pick a place that has Non alcoholic drinks or something that's not even a date. That's not even alcohol based at all Yeah. Um, they'll, they'll be genuinely interested in you, you know, instead of trying to give you shit for not drinking. Yeah. That's how you

Benyi: 31:59

know. Yeah, that's how you know. And also, I mean, that's my, that's my theory on it, but I guess there are some cases where. A person being sober or sober curious triggers a self evaluation in the other person who, if they feel, yeah, if they feel, uh, concerned or, you know, they wonder their own, um, they question their own relationship with alcohol and drugs, they don't want to see the other go through it because they're going to have to face their own, you know, um, their own deal. So maybe that's.

Tawny: 32:42

Exactly. I mean, anyone who is not supportive of you being sober or sober curious is usually, like you just said, they're finding out that you're sober might be triggering for them because they know that they maybe they need to reevaluate their relationship with alcohol. Um, it's very rarely about you. It's usually about them and this is we're talking about dates right now, but yes Say it applies to friendships family co workers like Being sober can be having a sober friend um or meeting someone who's sober when you are still drinking and but wanting to drink less it could be Confronting and it can be uncomfortable so like I said, it's If they're not supportive, it's very rarely about you. It says more about them. Yes,

Benyi: 33:32

indeed. Um, yeah, I agree with that. Um, okay. Let's, let's attack the second part, the saucy part, like we say, the sober sex. Saucy! Saucy. Um, now, on sober sex, when, um, you, you said in your book that, like, actually sex under the influence is numbing and, Uh, we are actually missing out on some pleasure. Could you expand on that? Like the scientific part of it?

Tawny: 34:01

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, let's say you're, you know, you take a couple shots of tequila before you have sex because you want that liquid courage. You want to be more relaxed in the bedroom. Um, you want, you're really using it to kind of calm your anxiety. Well, you know, the way our bodies work, you're not just calming the anxiety. It is, it is quite literally, um, like it is calming all of your nerve senses, um, which all like all of your nerve endings. And that just means that you're not feeling pleasure to the maximum ability that you, that you can feel pleasure. Um, and you know, again, I'm not talking about if you have one glass of wine, I'm talking about drinking to excess. Or are you relying on alcohol for liquid courage? That's what we're talking about here. So, you know, excessive alcohol use can cause, um, impotence. It can cause vaginal dryness. It can cause dryness of the mouth. Um, it can cause bloating, you know, all of these things that are deeply unsexy, um, which is like antithetical because we think we're using this alcohol to feel better. To feel more better about our bodies, but we're really actually harming our bodies, um, and we're not, and even if you don't care about your body, because a lot of people don't care about their bodies, you're really, you're really hindering your ability to feel maximum pleasure because you're the, the alcohol is. It's just, it's numbing everything. It's not just numbing your inhibitions. It's numbing your body. So, yeah,

Benyi: 35:42

yeah, I, I, I, I totally agree. I, I saw the science in your, in your book. It makes sense. Um, but the question is though, how for people who rely on liquid courage, like you said, for so long, how do they ease their way back into sober sex? How?

Tawny: 36:00

Yeah. I mean, this is. This is a tough one. Um, because we've, we all rely on alcohol in the bedroom for different reasons. Um, and earlier, like I mentioned in early sobriety, I worked on a lot of my own shit to, to get better, right. To address what I was self medicating. Um, And, you know, one of those was sexual assaults and that's why there's a whole chapter in the book about sexual assault, PTSD, while being sober or sober curious in the bedroom. Um, and the reason that I bring that up is because a lot of people, when they get sober, uh, especially women, they might come to terms with the fact that they've experienced sexual assault or some sort of assault in the bedroom. Um, that just doesn't feel right. And they're having a really difficult time making peace with it. And alcohol made those feelings a little bit easier to deal with. So in the, in the book, um, I share some of my own personal experience as well as the personal experience from mental health professionals who give actual. Tips of like, what do you do when you are having sex and you're sober and you feel triggered, what do you do? You know, and it, and it really is, it's, these are their tips that are designed to help you feel more present. Um, in the moment, instead of reliving something in the past, it's how to be present in the moment. But, you know, it's also, um, remembering that you can stop at any time. You can hit pause, you can say, I need to take a break. Um, it really is advocating for yourself. You know, if you're like sober sex is, can be very. Overwhelming, difficult, triggering, scary, heavy. I mean, it can, it can, it's a lot, you know? Um, so taking it as slow as you possibly can, letting someone know, Hey, this is my first time without alcohol. I really, I need to go slow here and I might need to take some breaks. And again, if anyone does not respect that and they're trying to push you, they don't deserve, they don't deserve to be even near you, let alone to have sex with you.

Benyi: 38:19

You

Tawny: 38:22

know, so it, it really is like, you have to be really patient and kind with yourself, which is why I highly recommend working with a mental health professional, or at the very least finding a peer support group. Or an accountability buddy. So you're not dealing with these uncomfortable feelings alone. You have someone to call when you do have something triggering or scary happen, because if you are going at it alone. It can, it can send you right back to the

Benyi: 38:50

drink. Yes, indeed. And, um, you're totally right about it. And also speaking of that chapter with PTSD and easing you, you talk about using marijuana as, uh, you know, because it's being used to treat PTSD. Some people, uh, Then use it to discover the relationship with sex and, you know, in the sober community, especially in people who are like in a recovery, the term Kali sober is used and now you have a kind of tier people are putting. tears in the sobriety level. Oh, no, they're not really sober because they still smoke weed. But if weed is used in order to treat a PTSD, what's your position on that? How do you not use what's okay. What's the mental state of a person who doesn't use weed as a replacement, but use weed as, you know, to treat the symptom of PTSD or something.

Tawny: 39:54

Great question. And, you know, I was a little nervous To include being pro cannabis in my book, because as you like, you just said, it can be a polarizing subject in the recovery community. Um, but I actually, I interviewed a, in the book, I interviewed Dr. June chin. She is a, um, and a cannabis doctor who teaches at NYU and she's on the board for the, the New York state cannabis, um, cannabis committee. Um, and she is my personal cannabis doctor. So like, okay. I I wanted to interview her because she she teaches classes on this like it's there are there are studies that show That cannabis really can help people with ptsd You know anxiety depression like it can help with a lot of things but for the sake of this conversation We are talking about ptsd And it's and I think anyone who thinks that alcohol and cannabis are the same need to do more research about Each of those substances the and I will also say um, there is a significant difference between using alcohol to self medicate or drink until you black out or get liquid courage and There's a difference between doing that and using cannabis even on a smaller level like on a micro dosing level Just to be present because your mind your anxious mind is so far in the past with your ptsd Using cannabis can actually using a small amount of cannabis can bring you closer into the present moment So you actually can engage in sober sex. You can engage in sober dating you can engage in conversations um, and again Just this is something that works for me and some of the people that I interviewed in for my book um, but I don't think that Incorporating cannabis into your recovery is for everybody. I don't think I don't think anything is for everybody um You know, but I think if you can go about it in a mindful way That's it's very very different than You know, I mindlessly got shit faced, but I mind, but I mindfully consume cannabis. No, it's, it's very different. Yes.

Benyi: 42:24

Yeah. Um, like my, uh, good, um, uh, A good, like, um, counselor of mine when I was in outpatient said, uh, he asked us a question. What's the difference between an excuse and an explanation? And, uh, he said it's intentions. Like, what are your intentions whenever you're trying to smoke? Are you trying to... You know, it's fine. It's to substitute to like your, your drug of choice, or are you trying to solve solving? And I think this is one of these instances here where like intentions need to be clear, uh, clearly identify in order to. You know, to use it first. Um,

Tawny: 43:08

yes, absolutely. And when we're on that note, I also want to say that, like, I'm, I'm aware that with the increase in cannabis legalization and more people implementing cannabis into their lives, whether medicinally or socially. I'm very aware that weed has changed tremendously over the years. Um, it's not just the stuff that like your dad was growing in the back, in the backyard. You know, it's, um, it, weed is really freaking strong these days. Um, And there's so many different ways to consume it, and we, it's still too new to even know the negative in, like, the, we don't even have science yet to understand what that is doing to us as a society. So, I. I, we, there's enough studies that show how, how damaging alcohol is, you know, and then now that weed is, is legal in a lot of places, um, people are drinking less alcohol, but I think a lot of people are also using more cannabis, so we are in this limbo stage and I don't want, if anyone's listening, I don't want the takeaway to be. Just use weed instead. I know,

Benyi: 44:28

you know,

Tawny: 44:28

not. Yeah, that's that is not what Benny and I are saying here. We're talking about mindfulness. We're talking about intention. I like the word how you use the word intention. Um, and again, alcohol and cannabis are very different substances. And I also know that anything can become addictive You can you can absolutely Abuse cannabis you can abuse instagram. You can abuse coffee You know, you could abuse shopping gambling sex There are a lot of things in life are addictive. Yes, so I just I want I want Anytime I talk about cannabis, I want to be crystal clear that I'm not Endorsing it. I'm just saying it isn't I'm saying it's an option And more people I want more people to in the sober space to speak on it Because I think it really can be helpful the it The longer we keep it a secret. I think it's going to remain stigmatized and that's yes, we get sober to avoid stigma Yeah,

Benyi: 45:33

you know, indeed. Yep. You're right. Um, yeah. So, um, Oh, we are about to reach the end of this interview. So like the last question is about the last part of the book, um, on, you know, uh, dating sober in a relationship, obviously when you in the long term relationship with somebody and, uh, you sober. It's not, it's not the, the end goal. You still need to work on yourself, like you said at the beginning of the book. And you have that, the part in, in that capture, uh, called how to fight. And I really want you to elaborate on it because how many offers of people who are in a recovery went back out because they had a fight with their partner. So it's very important that, um, I think that you speak. On how to fight when you know, when you sober and in a relationship, go ahead.

Tawny: 46:30

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't have a statistic at the top of my head, but I do know that relationships are a significant cause of relapse. So it is important that we know how to communicate. You know, we know, we need to know how to go through breakups without alcohol. We need to know how to fight and communicate in a healthy way without relying on liquid courage. Um, that's why I included, there's a chapter about breakups and there's a chapter about healthy fighting because there's this, you know, another stigma that like, Oh, you're not supposed to fight. You know, if you're really in love, you don't, you don't fight. And that's like, no, you should fight. You should absolutely, you know, don't scream at each other. Don't. You know, don't disrespect each other, but you, you need to disagree. You don't like, it's not that you need to disagree. It's that you're never going to agree on everything. So let's just be honest and talk about it. Um, You know, a very simple, you know, when you do this, I feel this can go a very long way instead of saying, you know, why do you always do this? No one wants to hear that. Like that. No one wants to hear that. So, you know, instead of saying, you know, you always, or you never, you know, when you do this, I feel this way. That way you're making it about yourself. You're saying this particular behavior impacts me in this negative way. And you're also saying, I love, you know, with you approaching that person in a respectful way, you're saying, I love you. And I want to do this with you. Let's find a way to compromise and meet each other where we are, as opposed to. Either having these breakdown, drag down fights or pretending that everything's fine and sweeping stuff under the rug, you, you have to communicate, you have to talk, um, if, if people tell, I've, I've been told, oh yeah, me and my husband don't fight and I'm like. Okay, so like one of you guys sounds like you like no one's speaking up like you guys are just like trying to keep the other person happy and then some shit's going to blow up down the road, you know, like, so yeah, this whole that whole chapter is like. Sample conversations, um, on, on how to fight in a healthy way.

Benyi: 49:02

That's awesome. Uh, and to really quick, go back to what we were talking at the beginning on, uh, uh, attachment style, do you think they're like different? a communication stance for somebody who's like, you know, yourself codependent or somebody who's like avoidant like myself? Is it like something we need to look out for when, you know, like on how we communicate? Because, you know, we all different when it comes to emotions and stuff.

Tawny: 49:31

Absolutely. That's a great question. Um, I think this, this honestly goes back to your first question about dating yourself. The more time you spend figuring out who you are without alcohol, the better your relationships are going to be. And you're going to be a better friend. You're going to be a better partner, a better sibling, a better child, a better sister. Like you're just going to be better because you're taking care of yourself instead of trying to please other people or You know long list there. Um, so yeah, I mean to answer your question. It's just I think it's just so different for everyone and If you don't know your attachment style, or if you don't know how to fight, if you don't know how to do any of this stuff, like there are books out there, you know, there's um, Anxiously Attached by Jessica Baum, she's a fabulous therapist who wrote about the anxious attachment theory and um, or anxious attachment style, like figuring Who you are and what you bring to the relationship is only going to help you. And I think that's something that you need to do, even if you are in a relationship, especially if you're in a relationship, um, you know, a lot of this conversation is usually single people before they get in a relationship. But I think people that are in a relationship also need to have these conversations. They need to figure out what's their love language. What's your attachment style? How do you, what's your communication style? You need to figure all this stuff out, whether you're single or in a relationship.

Benyi: 51:05

True. Indeed. And what a beautiful way to, to end. Uh, so now the floor is yours. Uh, what do you want to tell the audience before we wrap this up? Um,

Tawny: 51:16

Yeah, I just, I want to remind people that you do not. Need to hit rock bottom before you decide to get help you can just start with a dry month Maybe do two months do a week, whatever um, just take a break from alcohol and be mindful and take care of yourself and Um, I also want to remind people that no is a complete sentence You don't have to justify why you're not drinking just a simple. No. Thank you That's all you got to say.

Benyi: 51:45

All right. Uh, Tony, thank you very much for being the guest of Sail Away to Redemption. And, uh, guys, I will see you for the conclusion. Thank you. All right, all right. All right. Thank you very much to tony for being the guest on stairway to redemption Um, I cannot recommend enough that you guys pick up her book try humping i'm gonna add the link to the In the description of this episode Uh, yeah, that was a very great read Um, yeah, also shout out to a dear friend of mine, Anthony, who joined the Patreon. So this is a thing I'm going to do now, give shout outs, uh, in the credits to those who joined the Patreon. Uh, yeah, guys, you know. It's always a pleasure to have your, so you guys support the, the podcast via Patreon and, uh, I hope that a lot of you will follow. Uh, last week episode intervention is very successful. I, as, uh, I thank you guys, all of you will listen to it. Uh, it's definitely the most international episode, but it's because of Tomo. But yeah guys. Alright, enough of me. I will see you guys next week. Bye.