Episode 41: Intervention

Benyi: 0:05

Hi, my name is Benny Johnson. As some of you know, I've been struggling with addiction. However, I decided to change my life and went into recovery. I started this podcast 90 days clean and I want to take you along in my journey. What does lie ahead of me? Let me be frank. I do not know. Will I ever drink again? I do not know. This is how Stairway to Redemption was born. It is my search for answer in a real time process of what is going to work for me. It is then my aspiration to help you figure out what is going to work for you. It is our journey together. All right. All right. Welcome to Steroid to Redemption, another episode. This episode is a very, very special one. I'm welcoming my good friend, dear friend, one of my best friend with me on this podcast called Tobo. Uh, for those who don't know, Tomo is one of the two, actually, he's the one who called my mother, who snitched, I would better say, I don't know, I'm just kidding, but who called my mother for me to, to go back to Riyadh, I mentioned him, you know. Um, previous podcast, I don't think I mentioned him by name, but him and my good friend, other friend, Neil, had the presence of mind of, you know, after not being able to, you know, they, they saw, they saw, they saw that I was slipping into deep and deep addiction and I was not being myself anymore. And they took the initiative to reach out to my mom. And, um, you know, um, Neil should be, um, the ideal is Neil to come. I think Neil is going to join us later, but, uh, so Tomo had that great idea of him being a guest on the podcast to tell us his perspective of what those. Let's say some kind of intervention, uh, yeah, and, uh, guys, I didn't hear his part of the story when he called, so that would be new for me too, and I, I don't know how I feel about this episode, I have mixed feelings, but I'm very, uh, eager to know. What happened? And, uh, so let's start with the introduction. For now, we have Tomo and hopefully Neil is going to join us. Tomo, how are you doing? I'm

Tomo: 3:00

doing great. I'm so happy to be on this podcast. I'm so happy that you are on the stairway to heaven and that we are all with you. Stairway

Benyi: 3:11

to redemption, man. Yeah, it's not,

Tomo: 3:12

uh, yes. Redemption for me means heaven. I'm, you know, I'm always, I'm always increasing the stakes. This is the way I do. And this is why I called your mother because I'm raising the stakes so that we get to a solution and we don't get to just a better point. I want all of us to be in, in the best. ever possible.

Benyi: 3:39

Well, by the way, I just don't want, I don't want to be sued by Led Zeppelin because Stairway to Heaven is a song of Led Zeppelin. Just, just putting it out there. Yes,

Tomo: 3:49

just putting it out there. Uh, Stairway to Heaven is actually from Dante Alighieri from the 14th century of Italy. So even Led Zeppelin could be sued by Dante Alighieri if he could. So just saying, just saying, you know, and we can even forget about the stairway. We can think about the lift, you know, a fast speed, bullet speed lift to redemption and heaven. So I'm very happy to be with you, my friend.

Benyi: 4:19

Yeah. Thank you very much, Tomo. By the way, Tomo lives in Luxembourg, which, so there's a six hours difference here. And, uh, yeah, like that's any, you know, like you can tell he's very educated. Like, you know, he loves it. A lot of stuff, you know, and, uh, yeah. All right. So sorry, I'm laughing right now, but let's start. So, you know, the first, the first, the first thing is the state of the mind address, so Tomo, what's going on with you lately, tell us something more than, uh, I'm just doing fine.

Tomo: 4:54

I am, I'm a point in my life. I'm, I'm, I was born in 89. I am therefore soon to be 34 because I was born in November. And I'm a point in my life where I want to really move forward, but in every fields of my life. So meaning that, um, I'm trying to become a better father for the two. Children, I have, uh, who are pretty young, three year and a half and one year and a half. I'm trying also to be a better, uh, servant in the noble term of the European union, where I work as a sustainable finance officer. So I'm trying to push forward transparency, accountability, and reliability of sustainable finance worldwide. I'm also trying to push for peace. In these times where we have wars in every continent, almost, or I shouldn't even say almost, where we have conflicts, where we have violence every day and. And I think that there's a need for dialogue across religions, across stereotypes, and also with regard to addiction. So this is why also I, I'm committed and I'm so happy to be on this podcast because I would like the mentalities of the people to change. About addiction and about any, any weakness, any sickness that may exist in this world because addiction is just one of them, and it shouldn't be treated in a different manner. If someone has an issue, people should solve them and not blame them. This is my take, and this is also the take off, uh, Neil, whom I hope will be joining soon or in another result. But this is why I think that my state of mind is to try to, to be a better, to be better than yesterday. And to be better in the sense, not only for my own ego, for my own personal, single, small situation, I would like to contribute to the improvement of the society in the line of the spirit of the founding fathers of the U. S. Of the founding fathers of democracy in France of the founding fathers of the European Union and of the United Nations. I would like a world without a third World War. So this is my Yeah. State of mind at this stage. Thank you so

Benyi: 7:36

much. Damn, man. Can I say something? I love you, man. I'm in love with you, man. Like that kind of intro, you cannot beat it. Like who, who can, you're, you're a true diplomat, my friend. But I

Tomo: 7:52

am your friend. I am your friend and I love you too. And this is why I'm trying to give the best that I can do. I hope I'm not speaking too much. I'm sorry if I'm too talkative. I'm, I'm French and Japanese, but my wife and my mentors are Italian. So I'm becoming also Italian myself. And I'm speaking far too much also with my hands. So I'm, I apologize to the audience at this stage. So sorry.

Benyi: 8:16

I can listen to you for hours, man, but let's, I'm not sure everybody on our platform podcast gets.

Tomo: 8:25

Let's cut, let's cut to the point.

Benyi: 8:28

But like, you know, I really like your state of the mind address, because we're going to talk about what you mentioned later, the mentalities and like, um, the Um, uh, the stereotype that people have about those who are addiction and, uh, those how society treat them. Definitely, we're going to talk about that. Uh, but the first I want, since you are not in recovery yourself, uh, I'm not going to ask you to tell us your story with addiction. Uh, but I'm going to ask you to tell us what's your relationship with, um, alcohol and drugs.

Tomo: 9:08

Uh, myself, I am, I have, I have a French and Italian relationship to alcohol, so I'm drinking for pleasure. I'm not addicted. I love it so much. I just had, uh, a few glasses, uh, at lunch and, uh, and I do this occasionally. And, uh, I'm, I'm my, my way is not. Quantity is quality. So I spent less, uh, let's say in absolute volumes, but more for a single class. So, uh, so I won't give, uh, French or Italian, uh, regions beyond, uh, A few of them that you might know in Piemonte, in Tuscany, in Burgundy, in Champagne, of course. But apart from this, apart from this, because no, but also it's important to say that it's not that alcohol is forbidden, you know, if you go to the mass and I'm not Christian, but the wine of the, the blood of the Christ is wine, you know, so you shouldn't think that the alcohol is completely forbidden. Yeah. And in Buddhism either, yeah, depending on, on, on the different schools, it's not forbidden. The question is about finding the right balance, you know, not losing the control. It's all about this. So I hope I'm not, uh, you know, uh, discouraging the people that are on their, on their path to redemption and are completely sober and not drinking any single drop. I'm just saying the way I see it. Which is about being on balance. So for example, I'm a new driver and as a new driver in Luxembourg, I shouldn't drink any single drop of alcohol. So if I know I drive, I don't drink any single drop of alcohol. Full stop. Anyway, so about, about addiction, I can say that in my family from, For my mother's side, who is from Champagne and for my father's side, who is from Fukuoka in Kyushu in the south of Japan. I think that for sure on the French side, imagine Champagne, of course, but also I think even on Japanese side, I have some ancestors that, uh, unfortunately, uh, had issues with addiction. To alcohol. Mm-hmm. And alcohol is everywhere. It is part of our culture. It's, uh, but it's also, you know, a way to try and escape, uh, from problems from everyday life. And, uh, and it is dangerous, uh, if you don't have it under control. So what I can say is that, um, uh, I have, uh, more, I mean, closer to me, uh, an onco. Who had, uh, issues with, uh, with alcohol and also with drugs and, uh, and so it's, um, it's, it's not that he only had issues, but, uh, he, uh, he was, um, also taking, uh, so he was trying to, to redempt himself. To get healed and lose its addiction with treatments, he was, uh, taking the substitutes to, uh, to this, um, to these, uh, um, drugs and, uh, and he, he never fully, uh, uh, achieved. Uh, this, uh, loss of addiction and, and basically, uh, two years ago, I, um, I had an intuition that he was not doing well as the same as I had an intuition for you and I call him and this was exactly, yes, September and of September and, and, um, And he was, uh, he, he was completely disoriented and, uh, and he thought I was with him while I was 1000 kilometers away and he was in the hospital. And, uh, so I asked my mother to, to go to him and, uh, and unfortunately, uh, because it was quite far when she arrived, basically the police told her that, uh, He died and he died a hundred meters from the hospital. So the hospital, uh, checked him and said that he was all fine. And a few hours later, he passed away, uh, next to, um, I mean, within, within the park of the hospital. And I am the, because I saw his phone afterwards, uh, when I went to the police, I was the last one to speak to him. I was the last goal. I was on the line with him and, and, uh, and, and he told me that he loves me and that he was coming to me and these are his last words. So, uh, so with my, with my mother, we sued, uh, the hospital and the doctors are using, uh, medical secret as a way to escape questions. But medical secret applies to, uh, the ones that should be healed, not The ones that are healing people. And as a family, we have the right to know what happened. So, uh, an affair is, um, has been a case has been opened. It is for the judge and has been two years. So we will see. So you can imagine also that after, uh, hearing 89 at the time would not survive much. Also, she had already lost two kids. Uh, in a young age, uh, one daughter when she was eight and one boy when he was 17. So it was a third, uh, children that, uh, she lost in a dramatic, in a terrible conditions. And so, um, she was, um, in the, at the hospital, uh, losing her, all her, uh, uh, all her, how do you say, uh, immunity, uh, defenses and, um, and so, so. The medical system is what it is. So we had to fight so much. So she could get a fair treatment. And anyway, anyway, uh, cause I could speak, uh, for days about this, but the point I want to make is that addiction has been a poison for my family, not only for this generation, but for past generations and addiction, addiction, whether to drugs, whether to the. It's just a symptom that there is some despair. I think that there is some deep unhappiness in the people. This is my take. If people do things that they know are harming them and they are doing it still, it is because they are. Deeply unhappy, deeply sad, and it's a way to escape. This is my interpretation. There might be others, but this is my take, and I think that these people should be helped and that they shouldn't be any shame about this because, for example, my uncle. I only discovered with the police that he had never stopped this, uh, substitute to his drugs, although he had told us for 10 years. So he had lied to us. It's not about the lie. It's because if we have known we could have helped even better. And, uh, I'm not saying would have helped saved him. Maybe he, he would have still died at this moment. We never know, but. In any case, I mean, what I want to say, and I, and I told you Benny, like you don't have to hide anything from me. I'm, I'm your true friend. I'm your true brother. You should tell me you have done anything wrong. I can hear this. And the same as Neil said, I remember this exactly. He told me we don't judge, you know, only. And as Tupac would say, and as many would say, only God can judge. No, only God can judge. You know, I don't believe in God. I'm Buddhist. I'm Buddhist. Yeah. I don't believe in God, but still only God can judge. So I, who am I to judge you? Yeah. Who am I? I'm nobody. You know, I also myself have weaknesses. Yeah. Maybe if I would be in your situation, I would be worse than you. You know, Who knows? Mm-Hmm. So, I'm here to help you because I love you. This, this is the only point. You know, if I, if I judge you, and if I think, ah, he's doing this, this is bad. Uh, what a bad guy. You know, who am I? I mean, am I happy? Am I better than you? Of course not. So this is what I want to say. And, and to conclude, Victoria go, said that. Jesus, man. Yes,

Benyi: 18:48

let's go.

Tomo: 18:49

He said two things. He said two things. Yeah. He said two things. He said, love. Is an act. This is the first point. So if you love somebody, you should act. It's not enough to just pray or just say, I'm thinking about you. No, no, you should take actions, you know, concrete actions. And this for me was, for example, calling your mother, you know, which I know is not, is not nice. It's not the pleasure. It's, But this was the only action I could take because I was 10, 000 kilometers away from you. Otherwise I would come straight to you. If I could, I took it, I should have taken a flight and so on. And it was difficult. So I thought the best, most efficient way in this, in this really, uh, how can I say it's, it's a alert situation. In this cat force measure, it is to call your mother is the last resort I have the last thing I can do. So, so it is your mother. It's I'm not calling the police. I'm not going, uh, you know, I'm calling your, your parents and I had met your mother. So I thought that, and if I, I myself, I'm a father and I would prefer to know from anybody to tell me, look, please, please go in and speak to your children. Yeah. Yeah. They are not in shape. I would love to see, hear this rather than hear later that somebody, something really bad happened to them. Yeah. Yeah. So because Shane is one thing, but you know, losing a child is the worst thing ever. There's nothing worse than losing a child. Yeah. So, and the last quote, uh, of Victor go, it's in the same way it is, I would say in French. So those who love Mm-Hmm. others who fight and love in action means fighting. It doesn't mean, you know, just, uh, sending roses and, uh, being, uh, cheesy, you know, it's about making actions that are not easy. It's about being detriment. And whether it is for your friend, for your brother, for your, for your mother, for your partner, for your wife, for your husband, doesn't matter. You have to fight. It is, it is a struggle because life is not easy because people get sick. They can be in sickness, can be addictive, uh, can be, uh, being addicted to something. It can people get old. It's just natural. People can die. Of course we are. We will all die. So, so in this context, I think that we have to be bold. We need courage. And, and if you see an example of somebody fighting, you feel. you feel more eagerness to act yourself. And this is what I felt with, with Neil, because I don't want to just say I've done everything alone. It's not true. This is if actions he made and without him, I wouldn't have been able to call your mother. So it's two of us. Uh, and I want to highlight this, uh, and, and, and this is for me, uh, True love, you know, and it's not, uh, you know, love in the sense in the platonic sense. Yeah, there's nothing, no, no, no strings attached. It's about real love, which means caring about people.

Benyi: 22:33

No, I mean, you said beautifully, man. Um, yeah. What, um, what an ordeal. Um, yeah. So, uh, now, um, You know, could you take us through the exact step that Neil and you guys took? Because I don't think I hear that story. How, how did you guys got together and decided to call my mom? Like. If you could tell us to like the steps, what happened? So I was because you guys don't even talk to each other that often.

Tomo: 23:15

No, no, not at all. We do sometimes because we are 10, 000 kilometers away. So we don't see each other every week and we speak to each other. No, I don't know. Every year, something like this. We were. Uh, for those who don't know, we were a part of, um, Delta epsilon, uh, colony in, uh, the U S that we tried to, we tried to establish, uh, but whatever we were, we are true friends. Uh, we were, uh, we were seeing each other very often when we were in the U S every, every week, almost every day. And then of course there's distance, but it doesn't mean that, uh, that's. You know, distance means distance from the heart. So we were always scared about each other. And, uh, and we met whenever we could. Each time I came to the U to the U. S. I met both of you. And each time you, you, you both came to to Europe. We also met. So just to say that, um, basically, uh, we noticed Separately that you had a strange behavior, not in an obvious manner, but you were asking some questions. You were not answering. You were being evasive. You were, uh, yes, you were, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm saying the, you know, the, the, the blunt truth, because I think it's better that people hear this. You, you, and I hope yeah. Uh, you won't be, uh, you, you won't be mad at me, but for example, you ask me, ah, yes, I have this, uh, real Madrid football game. And you know, I also love real Madrid at home and I would need, uh, actually have a problem with my credit card and, uh, can you make me a small transfer? Very small, uh, just to pay for the game per view, whatever. So very small, really like, really like not, not significant amount, very, very small, but I thought, is this strange? Yeah. Why, why would one ask for this? Yeah. So. Anyway, and then he told me, ah, the same things about, uh, whatever video games, uh, can you send me this video game? Whatever. So they were strange things, not big, you know, very small. We're talking about really amount for a meal. Yeah, not nothing. But coming from you, it was strange. And also because you are not answering, you were very evasive and we knew. You had in the past some, some, uh, some issues and we know you had issues in your professional life. So we, we suspected that you had bigger issues and, and then, uh, you, you told me very straight. So not being evasive that you had problems and you asked for my help for, again, very, very little. negligible amounts. Yeah. That I don't care at all. Yeah. And of course I did it, but, but you told me clearly you had this problem. So, and the fact that you admit it, yeah, you, you were, you know, very clear to me again, we thought, okay, we have to do something. So we try and speak to you. We called you and so on, but it was difficult to, uh, to interact with you because you were at this peril. And then We realized, okay, if he's not speaking to us, what somebody should come in person and see him because if he doesn't take the pick up the phone is the last thing we have to do so quickly. I am 10, 000 kilometers away. Uh, this was so my wife at that moment was still pregnant of the second child. And, uh, and, and he was also maybe, yeah, he, he had just, just had a baby quite some kilometers away. And we thought, okay, I mean, the, the persons who care the most about you in general should be your parents after your friends, you know, first of all, because they gave you life. And we knew that maybe the relationship was not, uh, always easy as for everybody between you and your parents. And, and And I, and I told Neil, look, I will try and find the contacts of her mother, of her sister, of his brother, of his father. So I looked for the internet everywhere. I wrote, I tried to, to write even to the employer of your mother. With no success, with no avail, uh, so I couldn't find, and Neil managed to find the contacts of, uh, of your parents. He's the one who found them, and, and, uh, it was not easy, but he made it. And then, I immediately, uh, called, uh, your mother, and I told her, I'm very, I'm very... Very anxious about Benny, because I think he's really in a bad situation. I cannot say much because I don't know for sure, but I suspect he's having some issues with addiction. I suspect. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, but he's not having a normal behavior. And she confirmed to me the same, and she was really desperate. But I said, please save your time. Save your heart. Don't talk about despair. Don't think about being guilty. This is just a reflect of society as a whole. It's not your fault. It's not even Benny's fault. This is a situation that happens. Very often. So there's nothing to be ashamed off, but please, please go to him. I know it's, I don't know, 300, 400 kilometers, some, a few hours of dry. Please go to him as, as soon as you can, because I think it's really, um, a situation that deserves immediate action. And she did it on the spot. And, and I think, uh, it was the best thing to do and it had an immediate result and, and then, uh, with, uh, Neil, uh, Neil, Neil's wife, uh, work also in the health, uh, sector and, uh, she, uh, provided Neil with some, uh, options, some ways to, to deal with addiction. And we provided all the information we had to your parents. So I was in direct contact with you. With your father and your mother and, and, uh, I was so thankful to them to take an action to, to save you. And they were the same need to, to be so open about this. And, uh, and for me, it is all natural. It should always be like this, because if you care about someone, you know, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Benyi: 31:17

Yeah, yeah, man. That's crazy, man. You know, like I, I felt like conflicted about doing this episode because I was like, Oh my God, that's, that's too much emotion for me. And I tried to get myself ready. So if I cry, I cry, but I'm not crying right now. Bad. For my point of view, I remember when my dad, because my dad works abroad and he sent me a text, it's like, heads up, mom is coming, you know, to pick you up for like, and I like, she said, he said like, Oh, Tomo, your friends, Tomo and Neil called to call mom, like she's coming. And I'm like, what the fuck? So I'm texting my mom. I'm like, do not come. I'm doing fine. She's not even answering. She's not picking up. She just shows up at. At my door and she sit down and she start crying and bro, that's, that's when I knew I fucked up, man. Seeing your mom sitting down there, not saying anything, crying and telling you, you're gonna die. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, man. This, you know. I'm jokingly saying that this episode should be named like snitches get stitches, but, you know, like the true feeling is a feeling of shame. Like that. Imagine it's when you snap out of it, it's like, how bad did I fucked up that my best friend had to call my mom and I had to watch my mom cry in front of me. Like that's, that's when you're like, holy shit. Like, I fucked up royally, like there's no, because I remember

Tomo: 33:08

a few, a few weeks

Benyi: 33:11

probably before you called, Neil came, Neil came to my place and we had a discussion. And he knew I wasn't doing well. And I'm like, and I told him like, man, I, I don't know, man. I, I don't feel like I'm reaching hot bottom yet. Like I always had a plan to, to fix things, you know? No matter what, and he said something that, like, I just remember now that's profound. He said like, yo, if you reach your bottom, I will be there next to you. He didn't say like, Oh, you know, he wasn't patronizing. He wasn't, you know, he, he understood clearly that I had to snap out of it myself, you know, and from my point of view. If I could describe now that I have much more clarity, how he felt, it was like being in a fog, right? Being in a fog, you know, the fog gonna disappear, right? But meanwhile, you need to navigate and move forward somehow, but you're like surrounded by cliffs and ravines. So you might fall, you don't know how to move. You... You certain that like, you know, the fuck going to disappear, but meanwhile you need to move forward and you need to survive somehow. And man, like, is that navigating and not knowing where you're going. That was like, yeah, like the word despair, the word despair was, it's a, that you use is a good word, you know? And, um, yeah. Even right now when I'm thinking about it, I'm like, those motherfuckers, man, they call my mom, bro. Like, I'm like, I'm like, I have your mom's number too. You Yes. Call my mother. I'm calling your motherfucker. Yeah, it's call my

Tomo: 35:17

mother. No problem.

Benyi: 35:19

No problem. I'm so salty about it. A word.

Tomo: 35:23

We've just got joined by Neil.

Benyi: 35:25

So it's going to be a little bit cut, but, um, what we're talking about and he jumped back in at the right time, uh, Tomo was talking about how. Uh, from his point of view, what it was like to call my mom, how you guys decided, uh, the step by steps, you know, what he went through. And I was just describing what, uh, it felt like to me, you know, to see my mom come and having to see her cry. And because, you know, she told me like, yeah, you're going to die. Um, but yeah, Neil, uh. Welcome, by the way. Hi. Um, yeah, Neil, uh, if you want to tell us really quick, what it was like for you to, how did you even find my parents number, man? Like what happened? Well,

Neil: 36:16

uh, I actually used a legal search. Engine public records, I think, to get, to get your mom's phone number, because originally our plan was to try to get it from your brother, Jeremy, but we didn't have his number. And I thought maybe, uh, Willie will Carol would have it, but he didn't have it either. Um, so yeah, I think that's, we changed the plan and went, went that

Benyi: 36:51

way. So, yeah. And, um, I was talking about also, yeah, so I guess that's how you, but I was, I was broguing up at the right time, the time, you know, I don't know if you remember, but. Uh, so I was telling Tomo that from my point of view, it was like operating in a fog, where like I knew the fog will dissipate at one time, but meanwhile, I had to navigate life somehow. And it was like I was surrounded by cliffs and ravines and I could fall at any time. Even though I, you know, I thought that things would get better, but I remember like a few weeks, maybe a month or two before, you know, you guys called my mom, you were at my place, you spent the night. And I remember a discussion where I said like, yo, man, I don't know, man, I feel like I haven't reached my bottom because for somehow I always had a plan. And things were. always manageable, barely, but I felt like I could manage this thing down without help. And you said something that was very profound. You said like, I will be there next to you when you reach your bottom. And I was, you know, I just, I don't know if you remember that conversation. Like, do you? Yeah, there were many, but like, um, yeah, man, like, I don't know, man, but back in the day, man, I mean, I'm, I'm telling Tomo, I'm really grateful for what you guys did and we're just. Um, just before you show up, we're just jokingly, I was just jokingly saying, saying whose idea was it to snitch that like, you guys don't pay your electric bill, I'm calling your mom. You don't pay daycare. I'm calling your mom, man. Like, but it comes, it comes from a situation that Imagine how badly it made me realize when, you know, my mom had to come and try, you know, I had to see her cry. It made me realize, damn, how much I forgot to fuck up in order, because this is like the. Break the class in case of emergency situation, like bro code, you never tell on each other, especially to the mom, but you know, it made me realize right away how bad it was. Like that

Neil: 39:27

you were out of control.

Benyi: 39:34

That's fair. that's a first. Hang on.

Neil: 39:43

Can I have a beer while we do

Tomo: 39:44

this?

Benyi: 39:47

Yeah, of course, man. You went

Neil: 39:49

after that

Benyi: 39:50

crazy rule. Yeah, I don't mind. Um, like, you know, you got in recovery. You I

Neil: 39:55

remember close to when you finally went, uh, trying to get you to go and you're like, we're going to talk on the phone and you're like, I can't, like, I can talk later, maybe like two o'clock or something like that. And like, you're on, meanwhile, you're on the kid Instagram live or something. DJing like just huge, huge speakers in your house, like blasting music out the window and stuff, just fucking jumped up. Oh my God. So fucking funny. Yeah. I mean, yeah, what's up? What the fuck?

Benyi: 40:44

Yeah, man. I remember that. Yeah, man. I was, I was in my work. You know, what's funny, man. Like I didn't give a shit in that time. Oh, man, that's hilarious, but like, no, yeah, we can laugh about it, but yeah, yeah. Like, no, I did, I did, I did the first question of all things. Oh, man, please shut the fuck up. You are.

Neil: 41:28

No, I'm a troubled man. People who aren't successful.

Benyi: 41:34

Yeah. But like, yeah. Now that you joined. Oh, God. Yeah, now that, yeah, now that you joined, I can, we can abort this, this thing. That's a bit sensitive that I wanted to talk about. Um, unfortunately, like the three of us, we lost people that we know in addiction. I want to, you know, especially talk about our friend Iggy and, you know, immediately after Iggy passed away, you know, there was a poor love, by the way, Tomo is the first one who noticed who hit me up, then I think I hit you, Neil. And, you know, uh, there was an immediate poor of love on social media. We knew also that Iggy wasn't doing well. He was struggling, but like, I feel like that when he was. Struggling when people in addiction struggle, nobody wants to do anything with them, but once they pass away, they die. Everybody's really quick to be like, Oh, gone too soon. RIP the whole BS. You know, what, why do you think there's a contrast between those two situation? Like that inactivity while they are struggling and then that all sudden conversions. Once they deck, um, let's go, let's, let's go with Tomo first.

Tomo: 43:01

No, please. No, Neil was ready. Go ahead. I don't want, I don't want to catch you. Neil, please go ahead. Go ahead.

Neil: 43:11

I'm

Tomo: 43:11

following you. You are, you, you know, you are, you are the president of the, you are still our president. I still consider you as your president. And I am your prime minister if you accept me. Thank you. Go

Neil: 43:26

ahead.

Tomo: 43:27

Please go ahead. No, no, please. Ladies first. Ladies first. It's Benny's show.

Benyi: 43:36

Sorry, Ben. I was just...

Tomo: 43:38

Benny, you are the host. You decide. Okay? I think it's fair to let Benny... Fight. Fight. Fight.

Neil: 43:43

Fight. Fight to the death. Neil

Tomo: 43:45

speak first because he wanted to say something and I'm still thinking. I'm slower. I'm slower. Neil wants to say something. I'm slower. So please, Neil. Go ahead. I think it's

Neil: 43:54

not... It's not... Necessarily incompatible to those 2 ideas that that people are grief stricken when someone dies, but when they're alive inactive, I guess, to to help them, I mean, the inactivity to help them is because addicts are notoriously difficult people. In terms of pretty much everything, but receiving out the top of the list and, and others feel that once you're in the throes of that, there's almost nothing that they can do. So that's why they don't do anything because they'd be like, it's not, it's not going to have any effect. So they can still be sad. And then even at that time when they're inactive, I think they're sad too. They're sad at that point, so I think that it's not like an all of a sudden sadness after the death. I think that. Even when you're, they're alive and people are aware, aware of the addiction, we're sad about it.

Benyi: 45:18

Yeah. Like, um, Tomo, do you want to go for, after I expand on it? Like, because I have a question right after that. That's

Tomo: 45:25

right. If, if, if I may, if I may, before you, you follow up with another question, I would like to comment open what Neil has just said, because it's good to listen to Neil first before I speak. So I can have an even more articulated, um, Argument. No, I'm not joking because you see, reality is complex. Reality is diverse. You can have, because I think the sense of your questions is to see, is to say, isn't there some hypocrisy, you know, of some people, they don't do anything. And, and then people die and then, Oh, we are so sad. We are so sorry, but they didn't do anything when you were alive. You know? So I agree. I think it is part of the reality. Some people are, uh, hypocritical, hypocritical, you know, they, they care about you. They say, I'm missing you. I'm thinking of you, but they don't do anything. And they say, I will call you. We will meet. We will do, but you don't see each other. And, and it is part of, uh, some, uh, superficiality. That I would say as a European does not exist only in the U. S. But also in Europe, it's part of our modern societies. People say one thing and they do another. And and this is a true situation. Yeah, it is just and maybe I've done this even myself. Who never did it? Yeah, to tell somebody. Ah, yes, we will meet. We'll call and you never call back. You never follow up. Yeah, so this happens So what I want to say is that there might be some laziness also, as Neil was saying, some people may feel powerless. What can I do to have this person? Because addiction is not an, uh, you know, easy thing to fix. It's very difficult. So even if you understand this, what can you do? What kind of actions should you take? So, for example, with Neil, the only thing we thought would be efficient would be effective would be to contact your parents, which is like, as you said, break the glass situation. Yeah. Was the ultimate resort, but this was the only thing to do. And would everybody dare to do this? Maybe not, you know, maybe they wouldn't, uh, they wouldn't want to bother. They might be shy. I don't know. So it's not easy to make, uh, to take an action that can help people. So also, I don't want to blame those. I think on the contrary, we should encourage those who care, who don't know what to do to try and make the right action. So it would be good, you know, for these people. And I think, uh, this, this, uh, episode can be maybe, uh, the start of saying, okay, what to do when you see somebody struggling with addiction. What should, should you do? Of course, you can speak to the person directly. This is what we did. But if you don't manage, what should you do? Whom should you call? Should you call the parents? Should you call the hospital? Whom should you call? Yeah. This is, I think this could be really like, I'm not talking about morals, good or bad. I'm just talking, you know, in a very, uh, American manner, what to do, what is the action to take. Yeah. So be efficient. Yeah. Action

Neil: 48:47

one,

Tomo: 48:48

call the parents. Yeah. So hands on, exactly. Hands on, not no judgment on what to do. So we thought calling your mother would be the right action because we know the mothers usually, and this is the case of your mother, you know, care and would. Would make a difference. She gave you life and she would make a difference and we were right and she did. So, uh, so to conclude, I think that it is true. There might be some hypocrisy. There can be also people who are powerless. They don't know what to do. And also it might be the first time you don't know how to deal with this. Myself, I've lost an ankle. I know there were people who were struggling with this. So this was a matter that was really close to my heart because I was not able to do to do the right action. I didn't know what to do, but, but for your own case, Benny, fortunately, thanks also to him, I was not alone. We did this, the two of us, we managed to find the right action and to, uh, and to. Take it with success.

Benyi: 50:05

Yeah. Thanks, man. Like, you know, um, Neil brought the term of like success story. I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm not there guys. I will make you proud. I promise you.

Tomo: 50:19

Right. Your, your podcast is already a proof that you are on the right path and, and you're successful. Even if, if no, you are, you are successful. You are successful. Even if you're over successful, you are successful. Where you are now, you are successful because you are out of this, this bureau.

Benyi: 50:36

This is success. Like, um, I, I'm, um, I've been asking myself a question, you know, like I journal and you know, some questions. Um. And I want, I want you guys your input on this. Do you think there was a way for me to be this self aware as I am right now, without causing so much damage? Who wants to go first? Can you elaborate

Neil: 51:08

on that question?

Benyi: 51:10

Like, like right now, you know, I think I'm doing fine. I know I'm, I'm, I'm like on the other side, hopefully of this, you know, uh, but I'm more self aware that, you know, when I was talking about that fog. That I needed to navigate, you know, somehow, while it was, I was surrounded by ravines and stuff. Now, the fog has dissipated and I'm still navigating life through, you know, ups and downs and low, but now I have tools in my arsenal to deal with anxiety, to deal with, you know, like stress and stuff that don't require me going to do a line of coke or like drinking alcohol. But. What I'm asking is, will have, was there a way for me to get this level of awareness of self awareness without having fucked up that much?

Tomo: 52:11

Yeah.

Neil: 52:11

Like, was it God's plan for you to?

Benyi: 52:16

Whatever, like higher power God's plan

Neil: 52:18

I don't know. Uh, on the one hand, I suppose that you have this unique result that came from the experiences that you've had. Um, could you've had that result from a combination of other experiences?

Benyi: 52:55

I

Neil: 52:55

guess like, are there other universes where you don't do that, but still. The same, I don't know, sometimes in this, you know, if you change something in the universe, then it changes the rest of the history and all the other universes. But it's hard

Tomo: 53:19

to

Benyi: 53:19

say. Yeah, I don't know either. I would like to think that there was a path. Let me to

Tomo: 53:25

get it. So without there's no way to

Neil: 53:28

say that there. Definitely wasn't another character. So

Tomo: 53:34

it's awesome. And I, I think I agree with Neil, you know, everything is possible. I, it doesn't matter. What can I say? I, you know, where, where there is a will, there is a path. So the question was, if. You really had the will, the awareness to make a change, to solve the problem, you would have done it. With Neil, we tried everything we could to make you, to raise your awareness about the situation, about the, uh, the gravity of the situation, and we didn't manage ourselves. So this is why we used the ultimate, um, means, which was calling your, your parents. So perhaps you could have become aware of the gravity of the situation in a different manner. The, the proof, as a matter of fact, you didn't until your mother came. So I don't know, maybe if you, I mean, for example, when I spoke to you, I, I was trying to encourage you as a Buddhist to turn to, uh, the area of faith. To go to church, to speak to people, you know, to speak to the priest, to speak to other believers, because I think that faith is important in life. Whatever it means, it can be also a faith without a God could be a philosophy, could be values, humanism. I don't know. Uh, it can be anything, but. I think that you, if you don't have a very strong belief in some ideals, whatever they are, L'Oreal, if you don't have these strong beliefs, it's very hard to face and to overcome the struggles of life. This is very deep belief and, and maybe there was another way, but in any case, it doesn't matter because what matters is that nowadays you are in good health. You are doing this great podcast among other. All the great things you're doing, Benny. So, I wouldn't, you know, uh, go back into meta, uh, physical questions. What about another universe could have come aware about this? I think it is a fair question for other people who might be listening, uh, to this podcast and, uh, are still doubting about the gravity of their own situation. For the others. It is a fair question. I agree. And, and for this. You know, deep inside, you, you know, when, when, when things are not going well, you cannot lie to your own self. You can try to, but not to the end because you always have some small glowing light in your heart, in your soul that, that is telling you it's not going well. You're taking another glass. You're taking another line. You're, it can be another thing. You're not, you're, you're working too much. You're not looking after your kids. You're, you're, you're too angry. You're not calling your parents. You're not calling back your friends, whatever it can be. You know, I would like to say addiction is much broader than just, uh, alcohol and, and drugs can also be work. It can also be sports can be anything. Yeah. So it's a matter that you're losing your freedom. This is what addiction means for me. It means losing your freedom. And, and it means that you're, you're not, you're not having your free choice. You're making your decisions depending on something else. So, uh, I would like also to enlarge the discussion. If you are believing in whatever, uh, politician leader or religious leader or any leader for anything, and you cannot make you any, any choice of your life because of somebody's, uh, desiderata, somebody's, uh, preferences, it means you're not free. So, uh, and I think especially for the United States of America, where freedom. is at the heart and is, um, the central pillar of society. It is important to insist on the true meaning of liberty and freedom. All

Benyi: 58:18

right. All right. Like, you know, uh, well said Tomo. Uh, last question before I give you guys the floor and we close this. Um, as a society, like Neil said, and you also Tomo said, um, people don't know how to deal with. You know, people who suffer from addiction, but let's be also, you know, not be like all detrimental, all side or thing. There's been a good push toward, um, you know, talking about mental health and the mental health movement. What do you think will take to give that same, um, energy toward. Addiction and not, uh, vilify people who are like in addiction. Like, you know, will they take like another generation? Will they take again, like another should like work, make sure like work should be involved. You know how now all workplaces make sure that their employees are good in their mental health. Like what's your position? How can we move forward? If you had an idea,

Tomo: 59:30

did you want to start? How do you, shall I start? So you have more time to think. Yes. All right. So I will speak of the example of Portugal, the

Benyi: 59:49

first Portuguese example. Go ahead. Yes. Portugal.

Tomo: 59:52

So Portugal was like many other, uh, Western countries was hit by, uh, the, um, the problem, the chaos, the half. Issue of addiction to drugs, they were more than hundreds of thousands of young people that were sick that had the sickness of addiction to drugs. And in this context. The politicians have changed their position because before there was always a moral judgment to tell, but these, these are junkies. These are, these are not educated people. These are, you know, the poor people, you know, some kind of rejection of this, but actually. In this year, I think was it was the end of the seventies, there was almost like one young person out of four that had this issue. And this was across the whole society. So you had politicians from the most conservative parties in Portugal that had this issue. This problem, this challenge within their own family, so they couldn't reject their own Children, their own nephews, and they were saying we have to solve the problem. So how did they do this? They went, they went without shame. It means removing shame. We're removing the idea off. Let's leave these people out of society. So you had people who have, were having this problem that were isolated, and this means that, for example, the health, the, the, the health care system that the health care assistance that was provided to them was only in remote areas, this was removed. So there were some buses that were going to every place in Portugal to bring the treatments to the people. Wherever they were without any, any cost, this was all taken by society. So there was the removal of shame. And thanks to this, they could really solve the problem because people, uh, started to talk about this, to try to make the right thing. And, uh, and they managed, uh, to really reduce. This problem really to almost zero. So I think it is not about just, uh, you know, the person who is sick. It is also about the doctors. It is about the family. It is about the friends. It is about the employees. It's about everybody. So my, my point about mental health. It is. It is the same. It is about the whole system. So I think if we all care about each other, we shouldn't fall too low. This shouldn't happen in the first place. If you see somebody that is not in a good shape, the first thing is to try and have the person. If everybody does the same, then, uh, we should all be fine. The biggest problem In society is not the people who are sick. It is all the people that are indifferent or the people who feel powerless and do not dare to act because collectively, if we all try and give a hand and even a hand or even a finger, but we are tend to do so we are, we can really have the right action. So it's, it's about the question of the system, I think, and also there should be no shame, you know, to go to the doctor, whether it is a psychologist. Uh, I've been to the psychologist myself when I've lost my uncle, uh, in the terrible conditions I described, uh, at the beginning of this episode, there's nothing to be ashamed of, you know, and you said Benny. Also, you, you might cry during this episode. Also, I cry every week because it's a way to express my feelings, you know, and I am, and I'm very strong. So my, my tears do not mean I'm weak, On the contrary, because I, I don't think I have to be ashamed of crying. I can have tears of joys. I can have tears of fear. I can have tears of anger. Yeah. I, the most, and I love to, to, to, to, to, to have tears when I laugh. Of course, this is what I prefer, but it is just a matter of expressing one's feelings. And when you have, uh, tears also, you feel better afterwards because you are letting your emotions go going out of yourself. So it's a matter of also of, of mental health. So I think we should stop to, you know, pretend we are strong and never cry and all of this, this is just bullshit. This is just bullshit. And being being really strong is not to be ashamed of expressing its own weakness. And I remember, um, a friend who is Catholic and who was explaining me about, uh, About the mass and the fact that when, um, when one is eating the body of the Christ, uh, I don't know, Neil, how'd you call it? The small piece of, it's not bread, but the host, we say in French. Yeah. So he was telling me it is something that is so fragile, so delicate, so light that can be thrown away that can be, you know, broken and it's so weak, but, but God is so strong that it doesn't matter to be weak, you know, and, and, uh, and, and the same applies in Buddhism. So when you are really strong. You don't care about the judgment of the people. If they see you down, you know, and on the contrary, the, the, the true people who love you, even if they see you down, they would come and help you. So admitting that you are down is showing that you're really strong. So I think that we should stop with the ego, the small ego that I'm so strong. I don't need help. You know, uh, and, and when one feels awkward, ah, this person is sick for whatever reason that they can be also people who have, who are having cancer and other people, they don't dare to look at them, you know, because they, they, they feel awkward, they don't like this, but, but they are weak because they cannot face. The reality of life and in life, there's also sickness. There's also aging. This is we are all coming to this at one time or another, whether it's you, whether it's your partner, your parents, whomever. So we shouldn't be ashamed of sickness or weakness. On the contrary, we should be strong and being strong being. means being together. So I think, and I, and, and I'm sorry for taking so much air time that, that it's, it starts from society. It starts from caring about your own family. It starts caring about yourself, about your friends. And it's also means looking at, uh, the leaders, whether in private companies or in public institutions, in public circles, who are. really caring about the people and are proposing concretely, not just in the air, concrete actions to take care of the other people. So I am from Europe in Europe. We have social security, and this means that I support this also wherever it is in the U S in the emerging, uh, economies, wherever I think that health shouldn't be. It should be a right. It shouldn't be something that poor people or other people do not have access to the minimum health care system should be the door. And if you are one of the biggest economies in the world, I mean, you should be ashamed if you let people die because of sicknesses that can be treated. All

Benyi: 1:08:30

right. Um, Neil, you want to talk that

Neil: 1:08:34

like everything you said, um,

Benyi: 1:08:41

what was the question there? The question was like, what do you think? Like we should as a society change, you know, because we did, we made like very leap forward when it comes to like mental health, uh, stigmatization and like, you know, it's not

Neil: 1:08:58

a big, big story. We need more. Of the

Tomo: 1:09:04

soft, uh, health care

Neil: 1:09:06

services, I don't know if you will call it that, but. Referring to mental health and

Tomo: 1:09:14

addiction.

Neil: 1:09:16

Services last stuff that the health care system is currently not really set up to deal with. That's where, um, yeah, like Tomo was saying, changing the stigma around. People who are down on their luck, essentially, you know, and the belief in the idea that everyone's redeemable, um, even over and over they have to be. Yeah.

Benyi: 1:09:57

All right. Thanks guys. Uh, yeah. So we reached the conclusion of this interview, uh. Thank you to you guys for being online. Uh, you know, it was not easy to coordinate, but we did it. We did it because we have like somebody who decided to leave like what? Six hours difference from us. And, but. All right, guys. So, uh, I really appreciate, let me conclude with this. I really appreciate, man. I'm really grateful to have you guys in my life and I cannot thank you enough for, you know, intervening and because that was an intervention, you know, like there's no other way to call it. And guys, um, I love you. I love you guys with well, I do love you too. Yeah, yeah, all right. Love. I love both. All right,

Tomo: 1:10:49

guys, the both of you. Yeah.

Benyi: 1:10:52

All right, guys, I will see you guys for the conclusion. Thank you. Bye. All right, all right, all right. Big thank you to Neil and Tomo for this very special episode dear to my earth Um, oh man, I cannot be grateful enough to have such good friends Who without doubt? Um, I wouldn't be here talking to you guys. Um Thanks guys. I would like also to take a minute to thank you, the audience. Yes, you the audience. Uh, Stairway to Redemption is now one year old and this past year we had over 1, 000 downloads, 1, 043 actually to be exact. That's about 2. 7 listens per day. Just to give you a perspective. That means three people are listening. To this podcast day. Doesn't seem much to you, but to me, it's huge. And, uh, I really appreciate, uh, your support guys. And let's see where the next year takes us. Thank you guys. And I will see you next week. Bye.